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Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

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Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#411

Post by 2ion »

AuthorizedCust wrote: post #102

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

> which brings heresies like hating LGBT

This is funny to read because LGBT and a series of other movements cause me to feel much the same as I do about "religious" fundamentalism. Excessive self-styling and countering any adverse ideas with a refusal to compromise or cede any ground. Not tolerating adverse ideas and manifestations thereof in daily life but "calling it out" and attacking them constantly.

Extremism in opiniated/constructed ideas, polarized cancel culture etc has become much more popular and dominating in the public discourse and media than it has been for the past 50+ years.

I just don't get how fundamentalists can remain so busy going on about their fundaments. It's all very tiresome.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#412

Post by coliveira »

AuthorizedCust wrote: post #309
ramraj07 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Stance on abortion among your brothers in church? As if brothers should even have one that matters? 2. Do you follow the edict that if you’re not baptist then by definition you go to hell? How do you reconcile this with having friends or anyone at all you care about who are then going to hell? Point is, I’m not sure there is any middle ground that’s acceptable. I don’t come here as an atheist, just as someone who’…

> Stance on abortion among your brothers in church Denominational stance is reluctance: https://www.umc.org/en/content/ask-the-umc-what-is-the-unite... > Do you follow the edict that if you’re not baptist then by definition you go to hell I am not Baptist. But the ones I speak to, who are dedicated fundamentalists, seem to believe that I am going to hell since I am not and will never be "saved" in the way they prescr…

The idea of hell was widespread in ancient times. For example, the Greeks believed it. They also believed that everyone went to hell. This is exactly the mythology that christians spread nowadays. The only difference is that Christians believed that the few who accepted Christ would be rescued from Hell, the same way Eurydice was saved by Orpheus (hence the idea that the church is the bride of Jesus). It is all a rehash of ancient myths.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#413

Post by wing-_-nuts »

umvi wrote: post #330
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #46

Having the Church community while growing up was great. But the fact that admission to this community required total philosophical adherence is just bizarre. Frankly, growing up in the church left me with a broken moral code. It was only once I left it in my teens and had to work things out for myself that I feel like I could properly ground myself ethically. Having a moral system imposed on you can do that.

You'll have a broken moral system imposed on you either way then, if not by a church than by the shifting values of politics and society. You'll never derive an absolute moral code by yourself, you are forced to accept the changing values of society or risk being ostracized. Most people just allow their morals to shift with society rather than dig in their heels or try to develop an absolute moral code.

Why would my morals be based on other people's beliefs? They simply boil down to a question of 'does this harm others, in a provable way?'

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#414

Post by gumby »

undefined1 wrote: post #384
toomuchtodo wrote: post #145

Late 30s here who was dragged to church by parents and grandparents but who isn't exposing our kids to religion. It’s pretty straightforward for us: you don’t need fairy tales to be a good person and to come to terms with death (which comes for everyone). “Be happy, be kind.” If others choose to observe, that’s their choice.

I agree, but beware that many people end up filling a religion shaped hole with other things. look at how many of our fellow atheists have joined the church of social justice. adhering to a new kind of religion and dogma. things you can't say, heretics who must be cast out, good vs evil, original sin, preachers, zealots, self flagellation. it's all there, except for a path to redemption. https://reason.com/2020/06/29…

> religion shaped hole

Your statement presumes that there is something innate about religion.

There are billions of people who live completely off the line of explicitly atheistic avowedly devout. They are by their nature not generally considered in such discussions.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#415

Post by throwawaygal7 »

AuthorizedCust wrote: post #102

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

Since mainline protestantism is in full collapse, is it really true the progressive christianity has any chance of surviving long term?

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#416

Post by mehlmao »

softwaredoug wrote: post #113

I enjoyed my pretty low key episcopal church upbringing. There was very little dogmatism, and mostly it created a framework for community activities and service. Many of my friends in youth group were agnostic or atheist. And the church felt welcoming to everyone. I wish something could replace this in my life. Something that felt softly mandatory that brought people together in a spirit of togetherness and service.

Do you mind if I ask why you aren't going to a church now? I had a very similar experience growing up involved in an Episcopalian church. I met a lot of interesting people who really cared about the community. Not long after I graduated and moved away, the church split over the introduction of Young Life (and their associated fundamentalist beliefs) as a replacement for the home-grown youth group.

It wasn't until I was an adult that I learned about my church's past. The priest there in the 80's molested kids who were part of the Boy Scout troop that met in the church's basement. Some church members found out, they contacted the diocese, and he was shuffled away to another state.

I was horrified. Older church members, people I had a great deal of respect for and spent most of my life looking up to, let him get away with it. They didn't go to the police, they went to the church, which allowed him to keep abusing children.

Looking for that sense of togetherness and community service, I've tried going to other churches since then. But deep in my mind, I know that all of the true believers will look the other way. The church I grew up in was a good influence on me and I met a lot of great people, but now that I'm getting close to having children of my own, I don't think there's any church I'd feel was right to take them to. The odds of anything awful happening are low, but knowing that these communities would not help them has completely turned me away.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#417

Post by jwalgenbach »

sarabad2021 wrote: post #96
whiddershins wrote: post #89

In my opinion the main problem for religion right now is the failure to explain their arguments at the highest intellectual level, publicly, consistently. Once I was exposed to better theology and philosophy of Christianity I was blown away. Edward Feser’s ‘The Last Superstition’ helped open this up. I have no idea why the level of discourse is on average so primitive, I think church leaders have been systematically…

The same can be said of science in that science can't explain the supernatural or the after-life. Science was never meant to explain those things but we have tried to make it a replacement by trying to naturalize everything. Things that go beyond this realm of understanding and reason.

There's a lot of conceit in this notion that just because _you_ can't understand or explain something means that it goes beyond understanding and explanation.

Religion exists because of that conceit, that notion that either something is immediately explainable or that it is supernatural. Science exists because the idea that something isn't understood now doesn't mean that we (as a species) won't ever understand it.

We stand on the shoulders who have come before us, and not one of them was a god.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#418

Post by whatanattitude »

m0llusk wrote: post #233
AuthorizedCust wrote: post #102

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

My own experience being raised mainline Protestant was a bit different which might be illustrative: My parents were not at all devout, but still took wisdom and moral lessons from the Bible, especially from the teachings of Jesus. At the same time the preachers in town leaned right in their beliefs and focused on reading and interpreting more obscure passages. This resulted in a modest ongoing tension about what exac…

Mass is very much not main line Protestant.

Spotting a witch would be no different than spotting any other sinner who exists. We are everywhere. At the end of the day we are all sinners and will all stand accountable for our sins on the day of judgement. We can either be found in Christ forgiven or on our own.

You can say you don’t believe it and it’s all a fairy tale. That’s fine but most Christians are only warning others of the eternity that waits based on the special revelation of Christ in the Bible.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#419

Post by krastanov »

lazyninja987 wrote: post #380

I am interested in one more detail. average family income for all church members. I have observed hindus, muslims, christians, jains. My observation so far is, religious fervor is directly to 2 factors. 1. is that religion a minority in a given state ? 2. whether you grew up in prosperity (not wealth, but above middle class)? societies which are poor tend towards fundamentalism. religion gives some sort of escape pla…

I have the impression this does not necessarily apply to the US. There are plenty of examples of... vicious(?) fundamentalists that are rich and of the ethnic majority.
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