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Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

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Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#371

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

[Posted this under a reply below that got downvoted, so reposting here]

I grew up fundamentalist, then swung hard atheist, then ended up, as one friend who went to seminary described it, "the most christian atheist he knows". I've known Christians ignorant and intellectual, hateful and openly loving, urban and rural, liberal and conservative, and everything in-between (and these are all independent axes, to be clear).

Here's my take: A healthy faith is not about technicalities, or about finding a system for understanding the physical world or anything like that. If you get obsessed with technicalities you become a bitter fundamentalist; if you get fed-up with religion but stay obsessed with technicalities you become a bitter atheist.

A healthy faith is about people. Yourself, your community, the world. Cultivating habits of forgiveness and growth toward yourself, and openness and love (as well as forgiveness and growth) toward others. Having a specific segment of your life dedicated to contemplation of the most important things in life, and doing so in a community on a regular basis. The iconography and the texts, ideally, are just a communal conduit for those ideas; symbols people can point to and use to talk about their thoughts and feelings around this stuff with others, and also to spark new thoughts and points of discussion.

Many (not all) of my close friends are christians, and none of them have ever tried to convert me (if they were to do that on a regular basis, we wouldn't be close friends). Some of them don't really think hell exists; most of them don't think some magic prayer is all that's needed to keep you out of it; they know that spirituality is a matter of the heart, and the heart isn't so simple. Most, I think, see that even if hell does exist, the best thing they can do for others is simply to love them and to help them be better through example and friendship, if anything. They know they don't control others and they can't force them into anything. They can only be Good and hope that it spreads.

I like this quote from Pope Francis:

> We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.

ADDENDUM: So where has that left me? I don't practice religion, though I read from the occasional religious author and I think spirituality in the broader sense is a useful metaphor for matters surrounding the heart and trying to be a better member of the world. I have really nice conversations, even with religious people, around those subjects. I've been known to go with a friend or relative to the odd church service (as long as it's at a church that's reasonably compatible with the above), and I often get some benefit from it in the form of meditation on myself and my relationship with the world. I've thought about finding a church to join for the sake of community, though I go back and forth on that since I don't believe in even the smallest literal sense (I try to let go of my literalism, but I still have mental habits from the days when I thought it was all about that, both religious and not). Maybe one day I'll find the right church and get past that.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#372
My experience with religion came via Mark Twain.

"In high school or at some point in my high school years, I read Huck Finn. There was a part in the book where Huck has to save Jim and if he saves Jim, he knows the church has taught him that he will go Hell. Huck denies the teaching of the church and saves his friend."

The following is my recollection of the book, it might not be exactly accurate but it is the way I remember it and or want to remember. Keep in mind, I read this close 30 years ago, so I read it without our current revisionist/racists history perspective. Please try to take my comments and thoughts only in the light of religion.

I do remember that reading that passage or that part in the story, saying to myself. “FTS”! I can’t reconcile this in my conscience. Religion is definitely the opiate of the masses. Look no further than the last few US elections. At that point, I disavowed any organized religion and started listening to Bad Religion.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#373
post #336

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

I became an atheist/agnostic as a teenager and now in my late 20's I have slowly come back to religion. So I am really interested in this topic. My comment is specifically about online atheist communities, because I think they are often toxic to both religion and to atheism itself. A lot of these communities are hyper-focused on fundamentalism, to their own detriment. These online atheists communities can be very unf…

> just a little bit, that you take your atheism on faith

Well, that's the whole point: Atheists don't.

Indeed we can't explain everything, not even close. But we don't have any reason to even remotely believe in any kind of supernatural power, which in turn begs an explanation it self ad infinitum.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#374
Observation (please don't hate me):

Originally I am from Ohio and I've lived in SF for 12 years. I am not very religious. In college, I lived next door to a cult like "Young Life" Christian club.

I notice people with extreme left wing fervor in the Bay Area behave in a similar manner to the Young Life crew. My thesis is: Their political beliefs are an independent variable and are not important. Had they grown up in a red state, their personality type would have been selected for and they would have become religious young life members rather than left wing activists. People who are right wing in the bay area, have more in common with those who were not religious in the midwest, going against the grain of society.

In short politics has become a modern religion and is replacing religion. And your personality type is being selected for, in your proclivity to join a group; either religious or political.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#376

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

For me, and many I know, anti-religious sentiment is pretty simple. We just think it is science fiction, and thus not good to believe it is real. Even if its all very nice and friendly and reasonable fiction, it is better to understand it isn't real.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#377

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

Nobody hates you. The gallup just shows that your belief system is slowly becoming irrelevant. If you can still draw anything from it (while leaving the rest of the competing sects alone), all the more power to you.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#378

This may be a very bad idea. But as (in the words of the at-present top comment) a fundamentalist adhering to scriptural literalism (aka a conservative Lutheran) [addendum: who does not hate everyone], I feel compelled to offer to answer questions anyone might have for me, so AMA. I don't really want to individually respond to everything throughout the rest of the comments, but I will begin by saying that most church…

A quick google search for 'contradictions in the {bible, new testament, jesus, etc.}' turns up a fair few pages. Viewing them either gives the answer as zero full-stop, or a long list of subject and their relevant citations. In looking at the citations, there does seem to be merit to the contradictory claims. I'll admit that the contradictions are a bit 'small' and may not always alter the main theme or may mix up the new and old testaments, but they seem to exist nonetheless.

I may not be all that up to date on what 'scriptural literalism' is exactly defined as, but as a lay person that would mean to me that contradictions would be a difficult circle to square.

What do you make of such contradictions and how do they affect your adherence, if at all?

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#379

A lot of clever folks in here attempting to tailor the Emperor's new clothes. As to whether church membership slipping below the 50% mark is a good or bad thing for America, I'm agnostic.

HN has a strong bias in the same direction as Malcolm Gladwell and the "well ackchually"s of the Internet.

This constant search for a counterintuitive result or explanation means that most comments on things just end up with a massive contrarian bias.

This makes sense. After all, no one is writing "oh cool" and no one is upvoting that.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#380
I am interested in one more detail. average family income for all church members.

I have observed hindus, muslims, christians, jains. My observation so far is, religious fervor is directly to 2 factors.

1. is that religion a minority in a given state ? 2. whether you grew up in prosperity (not wealth, but above middle class)?

societies which are poor tend towards fundamentalism. religion gives some sort of escape place where poor might forget their harsh reality and usually its provides some sort of alt-reality that their after life is going to be good. rich people who already seen those comforts dont search for such answers.

Also, if that particular religion is minority in a country, the religion offers companionship and keep the group close. also, it forms the main identity of that group which is difficult to get away from.

for the above reasons, In india, there are a lot of atheist hindus, but not many athiest muslims or atheist christians.

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