Live data from Hacker News

John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

social.librem.one

351–360 of 431 posts

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#351

I'm creating a throwaway that I hope won't irk dang. If this breaks the rules, I'm sorry and I'll stop. Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement, and he's the reason we all have jobs. Google and Facebook might not have been possible in a world where you couldn't spin up a server for free and compile code without paying a license. Richard Stallman has said some sexist and edgy things. He als…

I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. But this is a fantasy you made up. We've never lived in a society where you are free to say whatever you want and are isolated from all consequences of that. In fact, you will almost certainly have some lines yourself. There are things that Stallman could have said, or actions that he could have taken, th…

> But this is a fantasy you made up

This is an ideal held by many that we should strive toward. We may never achieve it in our lifetimes, but it’s still healthy to have a common goal we all work toward.

It’s disheartening if I just say “fuck it, we’re hosed, so what’s the point.”

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your response. What I find puzzling about most responses is that it is not fully acknowledged that she is already behaving violently by threatening injury to others by using her vehicle as a weapon basically. If you hit an elderly full-front with a bicycle, I wouldn't be surprised if they died of the consequences. And you are correct I am not promoting bullying, that would be insane. But total non-violen…

Her being violent is just your view though. It's not hers. Thus calling a mediator here. I'd honestly like to hear how you'd have liked her to respond instead of calling the cops. Be silent? And I'd also honestly like to know how you'd expect your teenage daughter to react if some bully comes and accuses her of something unrightfully, from her perspective. The answer to both has to be the same since it's the same sto…

How is turning blind ( outer ) corners full speed not violent?

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#353
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, you are accountable for the communications you make, whether via keybord, orally, or any other way. Just for the purpose of debating let me bring up my (very unpopular) point of view. I have always thought that anyone should be able to say anything and not have legal consequences (ex: go to prison, pay a fine). Notice that this statement covers all scenarios as long as the person involved "only speaks" (or pub…

> would still defend the right for some random person to publicly state that "we should kill all xxx", not because I agree with him, but because we should be able to discuss the reasons and try to convince him to do otherwise I think that's incredibly naive and doesn't actually work in the world we live in. Take a look at any of the genocides of the last century, with people on one side saying "we should kill all X",…

Saying (as I do) that everyone should be able to express their ideas (no matter how atrocious) publicly without facing administrative punishment does *not* mean that other actions (such as keeping a close eye on them) should not be taken.

I doubt that preventing the Nazis from discussing their ideas would have stopped them. Having their ideas not suppressed from public forums at least gave the chance to others to understand what was going on in order to try to stop it (which, in this case, failed miserably).

When "explaining doesn't work" it's time to take action. But not while the only proof you have against someone is what he said (instead of what he did).

The "brain washing" power that continuous propaganda has is not under question, but still I like to hold accountable those who do, and not those who say (I know this is a very unpopular opinion, that's why I like to discuss about it!).

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#354
post #21

I'm creating a throwaway that I hope won't irk dang. If this breaks the rules, I'm sorry and I'll stop. Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement, and he's the reason we all have jobs. Google and Facebook might not have been possible in a world where you couldn't spin up a server for free and compile code without paying a license. Richard Stallman has said some sexist and edgy things. He als…

So what? Though he's an philosophical founder, the FSF has stagnated under his leadership over the decades. It's like you're more in love with the Idea of the FSF than the FSF as it stands today, reflexively self-protecting its old guard and completely inhibited by the my-way-or-the-high-way attitude of RMS.

> stagnated under his leadership over the decades.

I disagree. I think FSF is/was until recently the strongest ever.

Free Software has advanced greatly in the past 20 years, that’s not entirely due to FSF, but in part. I don’t think RMS is the singular force behind FSF but I don’t think it’s correct to say that FSF sucks or that it’s sucked because of RMS.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Other than that, just because Stallman did a good thing once... Come on: this is a massive trivialisation of RMS's achievements. I have often disagreed with him but his contributions to OSS, and to the wider foundations of modern software and software development, are huge and are the product of decades of devotion - of consistent, motivated effort - from him. Like it or not, all of us who work in software - even t…

What did he do in the past 15 years outside of starting petty feuds that nobody cares about (the Linux name debacle) and being a horrible public speaker (there's heaps of stories of him being a dickhead to convention organizers, other convention guests and in general not really keeping any check on what he's even getting hired for)? Like, I recognize that what he did back in the 80s matters, but somewhere around the…

Stallman is completely useless, but then the FSF is also completely useless, so it seems quite unfair that he wouldn't be allowed to work there.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#356
post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's kind of the other way around here. RMS: "Well I invented the free software movement, did a lot of badass things for open source etc." Interviewer: "What about personal hobbies?" RMS: "I write unpopular opinions on my personal blog and express them in ways that annoy people" Is this enough of a reason to not hire someone?

> Is this enough of a reason to not hire someone? 1) Yes, when most of the job is public facing. 2) That's emphatically not only what he's accused of. He's accused actions in the workplace while carrying out his official business. Imagine being 18 and going to a conference and a 50 year old bloke gives you a "pleasure card". https://twitter.com/tihxu/status/463691653035745280?s=20 sharing good books, good food and ex…

> 1) Yes, when most of the job is public facing.

That’s no good. In open source projects all commits are public facing. All developers give talks at meetups and cons. If this is the standard we’ll have then we’ll end up in a worse place.

RMS is back on the board, amongst many. He’s not the chairman, he doesn’t represent the whole org. He’s just one person, part of an organization trying to promote free software.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#357

Is the quality of RMS's work so good that he is worth all of this effort?

I would hope that we don’t boil everything down to a utilitarian “is it worth the effort to fight for what is right.”

I would hope that any contributor to a community would have this level of activity to right a wrong, not just the famous people.

On utilitarian grounds, I don’t think this individual person is “worth all this effort,” but I think trying to establish community norms is worthwhile if our goal is a healthy community with strong contributions going forward. If a member can be expelled based on a blog post then that’s bad and will detract from people’s willingness to participate, I think.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He may not have sought a clinical diagnosis, or if he does he may not want to disclose it, which is within his rights. Nevertheless, he clearly and obviously displays so many symptoms from that spectrum that it would only be charitable to treat his communications under the assumptions that there's something there.

Even if he does, it in no way whatsoever excuses his awful behaviour, abuse and harassment. And it is cowardly and incredibly insulting to those who do suffer from it to claim it is.

It's not a carte blanche, but acting socially inappropriately is a hallmark of Autism-Spectrum disorders. I do believe that does excuse or at least re-frame certain behaviors that might be otherwise construed as "awful" or "abusive". Intent matters.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“It’s only bad if there’s a law against it.” We used to be able to buy LSD on sugar cubes at record stores, because there was no specific law against it. Most folks just became really annoying for a few hours, but a number ended up in hospitals for the remainder of their lives. There’s a strong argument that all drugs should be legal, as it will allow natural selection to work, but tell that to the families of drug o…

> “It’s only bad if there’s a law against it.” From my question: > but has he actually harmed anybody? Committed any crimes? So I'm not sure who your argument there was aimed against, but it wasn't me. I suspect any resemblance between the law and the morality of harm-reduction is merely coincidence. > As a former manager, and as someone that holds a fairly senior position in an organization that has very little to d…

Well, since this was honestly asked, as opposed to "Why don't we swan dive into the cesspool," I'm happy to relate my experience, and the opinions derived, thereof.

First of all, I don't have an axe to grind, re: RMS. I'm grateful for his contributions, and find some of what he says a bit annoying (but not something I lose sleep over). I honestly don't care whether or not he sits on the FSF board. It has almost nothing to do with the day-to-day work I do.

> but has he actually harmed anybody? Committed any crimes?

Well, the actual question was "Committed any crimes?", verbatim, so answering, by referring to the law of the land (or lack, thereof), is quite understandable. We live in a time, where "If it's legal, it's gold." seems to be the modus operandi of the business world. I find that we spend precious little time, considering such trivialities as Honor, Integrity or Honesty, when looking only at the legal code.

As to "harming someone," I suspect that we may not be the best judge of that. I deal with highly traumatized people, several days a week, and am quite aware of the grievous harm that can be done by folks, not intending to do harm. Often, the most damage is done by simple words (or lack of words), from those in a perceived position of authority (like parents or bosses).

> Obviously yes, saying dumb things will get you criticised and people may think you're a dick.

When people in positions of authority (and RMS is definitely an authority, whether or not he sits on a board) say stuff, it has a lot of impact. In my extracurricular world, I also spend a lot of time, running around with baby wipes, and a pooper-scooper, cleaning up emotional and physical damage, caused by the careless words of folks with authority that refuse to take Responsibility for their positions of influence. I have been one of those people, and have caused damage, by careless words.

I get rather peeved at people that have achieved some position of influence, then disregard the considerable Responsibility that comes with the trappings of power. Like I said, a bricklayer can spout off a bunch of guff, but their bosses are morally (and sometimes, ethically, and even legally) Responsible to watch what the heck they say. Today's hyper-connected world makes this even more imperative. Jerome Powell can crash the stock market by taking off his glasses to rub his eyes.

I really wish that society did a better job of teaching simple ethics, courtesy and logic. As someone who actually has a somewhat diminished capacity for this, I have had to learn it from scratch; often the hard way. I have caused a lot of hurt and embarrassment, over the years, been held to account, and have had to apply a great deal of self-discipline to mitigate my natural inclinations. It has not been fun. It's difficult for me to be sympathetic to folks that should have it come natural, and I know, for a fact, that there is a better way.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#360
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement The "Free Software" movement (cap F, cap S), yes. > and he's the reason we all have jobs No. There was a sizeable movement for public domain software before Stallman. Stallman brought along a particular ideology and one which resonated with a lot of people, as well as coding a bunch of software himself. But it is an incredible reach to say that, wi…

It might be the case that Open Source would have been created without RMS. However, you can't deny that Copyleft (the legal hack that guarantees that source code will stay open) was his invention. I am not aware of anyone else thinking this way in the timeframe he first put his idea in public.

This is true, but irrelevant. There is plenty of non-copyleft software that is thriving. FreeBSD, PostgreSQL, X, Rails, you name it. None of them have succumbed to the fates against which GPL proponents advertise their license as the only defence.
Post reply on HN