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John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

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Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#221

Post by Shish2k »

aboringusername wrote: post #23
risky_opinions wrote: post #9

I'm creating a throwaway that I hope won't irk dang. If this breaks the rules, I'm sorry and I'll stop. Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement, and he's the reason we all have jobs. Google and Facebook might not have been possible in a world where you couldn't spin up a server for free and compile code without paying a license. Richard Stallman has said some sexist and edgy things. He als…

> I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. I take issue with this. I'm not hugely adept at history but from my understanding there has never been a time where you can just blurt out a communication and have it be "accepted" by society - this seems to me very American and appears very detached from reality and real world experience. Yes, you are…

> None of these things are new to humanity

The speed and the scale at which “a random throwaway comment to a friend” can be taken out of context and used to ruin a person’s life are pretty new

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#222

Post by Roark66 »

kosinus wrote: post #19
risky_opinions wrote: post #9

I'm creating a throwaway that I hope won't irk dang. If this breaks the rules, I'm sorry and I'll stop. Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement, and he's the reason we all have jobs. Google and Facebook might not have been possible in a world where you couldn't spin up a server for free and compile code without paying a license. Richard Stallman has said some sexist and edgy things. He als…

> American freedom of speech This specifically is such a weird expression. Other than that, just because Stallman did a good thing once, doesn’t excuse him from other mistakes. And making mistakes is not itself a problem, you can always own up to them and learn. But what I gather from the discussion is that there is a _pattern_ of bad behaviour.

>But what I gather from the discussion is that there is a _pattern_ of bad behaviour.

This is such bullshit. There is no pattern of bad behaviour. There are some opinions that are considered controversial by mere fact of containing his actual thoughts on sensitive subjects rather than phrases repeated verbatim from the "currently allowed viewpoints" book. His views are not even contrary, they are just phrased in a way that allows dialogue of the subject. This is enough for the pure evil villains like Sarah Mei to build up her online persona by misattribution, lying and fabricating information crafted in a way that directs a mindless mob to online-lynch the man that in his life has done more for the freedom of that mob's members than anyone else alive. It is despicable. If anything deserves to be "cancelled" it is Sarah Mei's opinions on the subject.

The collective stupidity of the mob in question is completely beside the point as well as the actual content of Stallman's opinions which seem not to matter to anyone. This story really has one villain only and that person is not Richard Stallman.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#223

Post by DanBC »

toyg wrote: post #162
bitwize wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the bit about singular "they". RMS for some reason doesn't like singular "they", despite the fact that it predates singular "you" in common English usage. Singular "they" also happens to be, by far, the preferred pronoun of nonbinary people. By telling people not to use singular "they", RMS is harming, offending, and driving away nonbinary people from participation in GNU projects.

> By telling people not to use singular "they", RMS is harming, offending, and driving away nonbinary people Are we really at a point where a pronoun is persecuting people...? This sort of attitude is seriously disrespectful to people who are actually being harmed, offended, and physically chased away from real spaces.

> Are we really at a point where a pronoun is persecuting people

Chosing to reject someone's identity is persecuting them, yes. Luckily in England the courts agree and transphobes who refuse to use people's correct pronouns often lose their employment tribunal cases.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#224

Post by oytis »

thefz wrote: post #218
oytis wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with some eexceptions being hate speech or incitement to violence These are important exceptions though. Absence of hate speech laws is one thing that makes "American freedom of speech" a pretty unique thing.

That's a step backward, not forward.

I don't think there is such thing as "backward" and "forward" here. They probably contribute to social peace, but put limits to the freedom of speech, which do not exist in the U.S.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#225

Post by daveoc64 »

toyg wrote: post #162
bitwize wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the bit about singular "they". RMS for some reason doesn't like singular "they", despite the fact that it predates singular "you" in common English usage. Singular "they" also happens to be, by far, the preferred pronoun of nonbinary people. By telling people not to use singular "they", RMS is harming, offending, and driving away nonbinary people from participation in GNU projects.

> By telling people not to use singular "they", RMS is harming, offending, and driving away nonbinary people Are we really at a point where a pronoun is persecuting people...? This sort of attitude is seriously disrespectful to people who are actually being harmed, offended, and physically chased away from real spaces.

> Are we really at a point where a pronoun is persecuting people...?

If you're intentionally going out of your way to use a pronoun that someone doesn't feel represents them, then yes - that is persecuting them.

If someone asks you to stop, and you keep doing it - that's persecuting them.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#226

Post by jhugo »

orra wrote: post #195
2pEXgD0fZ5cF wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then what about the following part from the guidelines: > Honoring people's preferences about gender identity includes not referring to them in ways that conflict with that identity. For instance, not to use pronouns for them that conflict with it.

The guideline argues "they" is gender neutral, so it does not conflict with anybody's gender identity. This misses the point. "they" is indeed gender neutral. But when we talk about specific individuals, we almost always use gendered pronouns. Hence, as I said, persistently using "they" for a binary trans person is a veiled insult. Again, it's like saying 'You're not a real man, but I am not allowed to call you she,…

Knowing very little about this issue, this seems like a minefield. I have met many people whose native language doesn't have gendered pronouns, who make mistakes constantly when trying to use them in English and eventually learn to use "they" consistently to avoid getting it wrong. According to this standard, they would be being disrespectful whenever they meet someone with a strong preference about their pronoun, even if they had no knowledge of the preference.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#227

Post by bsagdiyev »

michaelsbradley wrote: post #190

Seems creepy: https://github.com/sticks-stuff/highlight-RMS-supporters

Not sure why this is greyed. This sort of stuff is childish, especially coming from adults. Well I guess they’re more “adults” at this point if this is how they treat people who disagree with them.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#228

Post by sam_lowry_ »

Taniwha wrote: post #187
Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement The "Free Software" movement (cap F, cap S), yes. > and he's the reason we all have jobs No. There was a sizeable movement for public domain software before Stallman. Stallman brought along a particular ideology and one which resonated with a lot of people, as well as coding a bunch of software himself. But it is an incredible reach to say that, wi…

Yup, long before I ever heard of Stallman we were passing around mag tapes full of software to share - people brought stuff to conferences and conference tapes were a thing

This is called pirating, now. I think Stallman contributed a lot to keep the sharing economy legal.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#229

Post by krapp »

quonn wrote: post #170
user-the-name wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, even if he did, implying that it is ok to be abusive or a sexual harasser because of it is not just absolutely wrong, but a massive, massive insult to all people with autism.

It‘s not okay to say they are abusive. You wouldn‘t call a child abusive if it shouts out some words that it doesn‘t understand.

>You wouldn‘t call a child abusive if it shouts out some words that it doesn‘t understand.

Are you implying that Richard Stallman is so cognitively impaired that he literally cannot comprehend the meaning of the language he uses, or control his behavior? That he has the mind of a child?

If that's the case, he should be assigned a legal guardian, not given a position of leadership and role as spokesman for the FSF.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#230

Post by Glavnokoman »

fen4o wrote: post #7
oblio wrote: post #2

Is this related to Stallman going back to the FSF?

See https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ and the counter-letter https://rms-support-letter.github.io/

Thanks for the links! And I guess the rms-support is getting yet another "russian bot" signature.
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