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John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

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Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#211

Post by Qwertious »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #72
bitwize wrote: post #17

I've given a lot of thought to this issue and though I've wanted to give Richard Stallman the benefit of the doubt, I've come to an inescapable conclusion: The FSF board of directors really stepped in it bringing Stallman back, especially in the clandestine manner that they did. They have squandered the goodwill of the community by promoting a controversial figure known for his toxic opinions and decades of bad behav…

> because of the toxic effect he has on the community, in particular driving women -- and more recently, those repulsed by pedophilia -- away. Can you name one person who was driven away from contributing to free software because of Stallman? Sarah Mei? Lol. I believe that it is unlikely for someone _really_ willing to contribute to society to abandon this idea simply because some person he's never met being an unple…

Ooh. Blaming the user for not contributing to a political organization for political reasons?

lol

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#212

Post by oytis »

thefz wrote: post #198
oytis wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still freedom of speech is understood much more literally and with fewer exceptions in U.S. than elsewhere. In Germany for one, there is no such thing as freedom of speech, but rather "freedom of opinion". Practically that means that if you want to say something that someone else is not going to like, you have to a) take care not to bring up any facts (e.g. say that someone touched you inappropriately), because as so…

Sorry but that is plain wrong. Freedom of speech in Italy is more or less the same of what you state to be "American freedom of speech", i.e. the right not to be persecuted for your ideas, with some eexceptions being hate speech or incitement to violence. This right includes other forms of communication such as writing and artistic expression. If you have time to translate this, the Italian form is even a bit less st…

> with some eexceptions being hate speech or incitement to violence

These are important exceptions though. Absence of hate speech laws is one thing that makes "American freedom of speech" a pretty unique thing.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#213

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

Qwertious wrote: post #211
Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because of the toxic effect he has on the community, in particular driving women -- and more recently, those repulsed by pedophilia -- away. Can you name one person who was driven away from contributing to free software because of Stallman? Sarah Mei? Lol. I believe that it is unlikely for someone _really_ willing to contribute to society to abandon this idea simply because some person he's never met being an unple…

Ooh. Blaming the user for not contributing to a political organization for political reasons? lol

Ah, yes, the good old Straw Man fallacy. Would you please stop doing that? I didn't blame any users.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#214

Post by GTP »

orasis wrote: post #144
gimboland wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want to live in a world where we can't be forgiven. Forgiveness requires accountability and commitment to change, neither of which have been forthcoming.

Forgiveness technically does NOT require those things. That’s the point. It’s fore-give-ness.

But if you forget for a moment your semantic argument, you find that is actually very hard to forgive somebody that doesn't admit to have done something wrong.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#215

Post by [deleted] »

risky_opinions wrote: post #9

I'm creating a throwaway that I hope won't irk dang. If this breaks the rules, I'm sorry and I'll stop. Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement, and he's the reason we all have jobs. Google and Facebook might not have been possible in a world where you couldn't spin up a server for free and compile code without paying a license. Richard Stallman has said some sexist and edgy things. He als…

[deleted]

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#216

Post by AndrewDucker »

risky_opinions wrote: post #9

I'm creating a throwaway that I hope won't irk dang. If this breaks the rules, I'm sorry and I'll stop. Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement, and he's the reason we all have jobs. Google and Facebook might not have been possible in a world where you couldn't spin up a server for free and compile code without paying a license. Richard Stallman has said some sexist and edgy things. He als…

Has Richard apologied? Has he asked for forgiveness?

Because if he keeps saying upsetting things and never apologises or tries to learn then he's driving people away. And that makes him a bad fit for a leadership position.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#217

Post by the-dude »

minitech wrote: post #209
the-dude wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The environment is profoundly different today than say, 40 years ago. Being different is much easier today. I was seduced by my parents to join a Judo club so I could stand up to myself ( this works wonders ). Last year, I confronted a new millenial neighbour of mine repeatedly on her behaviour of biking on the sidewalk. The biggest problem was she was doing blind corners as well. There are small children here playin…

Setting aside the issue of whether inconsiderate use of vehicles is a newly millennial phenomenon for the moment and considering what this is in reply to: are you saying that the situation could have been avoided if your neighbour had been bullied enough as a child?

No, I am saying it seems like some millenials seem unaware of the possible consequences of their behaviour to others and to themselves.

And if there is a confrontation, they'll report you to their teacher ( police ).

While when I grew up, when I misbehaved in traffic, say concerning a taxi(cab), the driver would stop, make his opinion loudly heard, perhaps accompanied by a threat of violence ( this actually happened ).

But now we are in a situation where neighbours can not confront each other anymore, and the preferred course of action is a mediator ( teacher / police ).

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#218

Post by thefz »

oytis wrote: post #212
thefz wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but that is plain wrong. Freedom of speech in Italy is more or less the same of what you state to be "American freedom of speech", i.e. the right not to be persecuted for your ideas, with some eexceptions being hate speech or incitement to violence. This right includes other forms of communication such as writing and artistic expression. If you have time to translate this, the Italian form is even a bit less st…

> with some eexceptions being hate speech or incitement to violence These are important exceptions though. Absence of hate speech laws is one thing that makes "American freedom of speech" a pretty unique thing.

That's a step backward, not forward.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#219

Post by astorgard »

aboringusername wrote: post #23
risky_opinions wrote: post #9

I'm creating a throwaway that I hope won't irk dang. If this breaks the rules, I'm sorry and I'll stop. Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement, and he's the reason we all have jobs. Google and Facebook might not have been possible in a world where you couldn't spin up a server for free and compile code without paying a license. Richard Stallman has said some sexist and edgy things. He als…

> I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. I take issue with this. I'm not hugely adept at history but from my understanding there has never been a time where you can just blurt out a communication and have it be "accepted" by society - this seems to me very American and appears very detached from reality and real world experience. Yes, you are…

> Yes, you are accountable for the communications you make, whether via keybord, orally, or any other way.

Just for the purpose of debating let me bring up my (very unpopular) point of view.

I have always thought that anyone should be able to say anything and not have legal consequences (ex: go to prison, pay a fine).

Notice that this statement covers all scenarios as long as the person involved "only speaks" (or publishes). In other words, the moment he does something illegal, then he should (in my opinion) be judged according to the rules of the society he lives in.

Now... I have never in my live encountered one single person that agrees 100% with me in that regard. They always come up with exceptions, such as these ones:

1) An author writes a book about having sex with minors.

2) A general tells one of his soldiers to shoot a prisoner.

3) My neighbor starts publishing ads on the local newspaper falsely accusing me of being a drug dealer.

These are my responses:

1) As long as we don't catch him having sex with minors, that's ok with me. We should encourage all types of debates, even those (specially those!) we are not comfortable with. In the worst case, each one will walk home thinking the other side is wrong; in the best case, maybe we will learn something from each other (maybe we can better understand how the brain of that author works and how we can help him). Simply banning a taboo topic won't make it disappear from society... openly discussing the topic will (in my opinion) be a better long term solution for all.

2) In this case the general is not just "saying" something. Due to the chain of command, the soldier can end up imprisoned or dead if he doesn't comply. I would still defend the right for some random person to publicly state that "we should kill all xxx", not because I agree with him, but because we should be able to discuss the reasons and try to convince him to do otherwise.

3) This is the most tricky one. I still think my neighbor should be able to do that because I expect others who read the newspaper ad to fact check his claims instead of blindly believe them. No one I have ever met agrees with me on this one... and I think that is because people always consider others to be "dumber" than themselves and thus need to be protected from non curated news in case they end up believing them. I really think this is not the case: I never believe anything I read on the newspaper (or online) until I get confirmation from several places and I know most people do the same, no matter how others like to "look down" at "average Joe".

I enjoy discussing the limits of "freedom of speech/ideas". Let me know what you (or any other) think :)

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#220

Post by DanBC »

2pEXgD0fZ5cF wrote: post #172
bitwize wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the bit about singular "they". RMS for some reason doesn't like singular "they", despite the fact that it predates singular "you" in common English usage. Singular "they" also happens to be, by far, the preferred pronoun of nonbinary people. By telling people not to use singular "they", RMS is harming, offending, and driving away nonbinary people from participation in GNU projects.

In the linked guidelines it says the following: > Honoring people's preferences about gender identity includes not referring to them in ways that conflict with that identity. For instance, not to use pronouns for them that conflict with it. > There are several ways to avoid that; one way is to use gender-neutral pronouns, since they don't conflict with any possible gender identity. > One choice is singular use of “th…

I feel like you're stuck on the reference to the guidelines. People are combing the guidelines with other things RMS has said about the word "they".

RMS has spent several years railing against "them"/"they", based on his flawed understanding of English.

> Is that all it takes to qualify as a transphobe person, despite all the other points?

If you know my pronouns are he/him but you decide that you can't use those and insist on using they/them instead then yes, you have an irrational dislike of trans people and you're a transphobe, unless you can show that you only use gender neutral pronouns for everyone.

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