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John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

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Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#201

Post by mhh__ »

psychiatrist24 wrote: post #178
mhh__ wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C+P of a compelling list from the gcc mailing list I read: 1. 'skeptical that voluntarily pedophilia harms children.’ stallman's own archives 2006-mar-jun I note that children are incapable of consenting. That’s what the age of consent means. 2. 'end censorship of “child pornography”’. Stallman's archives 2012-jul-oct.html Notice use of “quotes” to down play what is actually being requested. 3. 'gentle expressions of…

Obviously the age of consent can be discussed, it even varies from country to country. I don't understand the EMACS virgin joke? I don't think asking women on dates is automatically "inappropriate behavior". How are men and women supposed to get together? Even in a "professional setting", because the feminist claim that it is demeaning to women if somebody is attracted to them is simply wrong. I can't claim RMS is "o…

> I don't understand the EMACS virgin joke?

The "joke" is that they are virgins and thus have to have said honour taken away from them. Bad taste aside, the issue is really that he specifically singles out women when reciting it. More detail: https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/EMACS_virgins_joke

> I don't think asking women on dates is automatically "inappropriate behavior".

There's a time and a place. Ultimately it's highly dependent on context, but if women are made uncomfortable by it in this case I don't think it's unreasonable to try and stop. Also just to spell it out, the implication here is that he was only talking to her to get into her pants.

FWIW I don't believe Stallman is a deeply rooted sexist, but rather than he has certain extremely unhelful patterns in his behaviour which he is wilfully blind to. When he says he believes women deserve free software too, I do believe him, but that isn't good enough i.e. sometimes words have no meaning.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#202

Post by [deleted] »

simion314 wrote: post #55

We almost Linus Torwalds because of the cancel culture, would be a big loss to lose RMS because he is no longer good PR to have him, bonus points if some big business like Google or Red Hat could grab the leadership of FSF and GNU. There was a few days back a post for people to support RMS and I admit I did not put my name on the list because i am afraid this could affect my future, cancel culture could get worse and…

[deleted]

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#203

Post by marcus_holmes »

js8 wrote: post #48
enriquto wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do we do about this? There's not much we can do about that; the world is a horrible, unfair place. If Socrates was born again, we would kill him again.

I disagree. People can do things about cancel culture, in particular, give a thought about whether something that people are saying about somebody is really true and whether to participate in an online boycott (of an individual) based on a 2nd hand experience. Especially if you're in a position of power, consider if you should give in to the mob, which might not even relate to you.

Or just delete your Twitter account. Then it all magically goes away.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#204

Post by CodeGlitch »

gimboland wrote: post #182
CodeGlitch wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you seen his blog? He's admitted failings and mistakes in the past.

I have not, and would be interested to see a link to that (the posting(s) in question, not the whole blog), particularly if it addresses the many accusations of sexual harassment, as my understanding was that this had not happened. Prompted by your comment, I had a look on his site, but nothing seemed to be fit the bill, either in the "Political Articles" section or the "Non-political Articles" section — but maybe I'…

Sorry I don't have time to dig through his blog right now, but on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman#Resignation_f...

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#205

Post by bjourne »

risky_opinions wrote: post #9

I'm creating a throwaway that I hope won't irk dang. If this breaks the rules, I'm sorry and I'll stop. Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement, and he's the reason we all have jobs. Google and Facebook might not have been possible in a world where you couldn't spin up a server for free and compile code without paying a license. Richard Stallman has said some sexist and edgy things. He als…

I agree with you, but it would behoove you to note that most career destructions haven't been the work of mobs - they have been the work of white elites and old boys' networks. Dozens of academics have had their careers ruined because they espoused views the elites found uncomfortable. For each public career destruction, you have chilling effects that are orders of magnitudes larger; academics have to choose between saying what they think and having a job and many choose the latter.

By all means, defend Stallman's right to say thoughtless and sexist things, but also spend some time defending those who have been fired for trying to unionize their workplace, those who can't get a job because they have publicly campaigned for a political party, and for victims of workplace sexual harassment who can't speak up about it because they would be effectively blacklisted.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#206

Post by yorwba »

aboringusername wrote: post #23
risky_opinions wrote: post #9

I'm creating a throwaway that I hope won't irk dang. If this breaks the rules, I'm sorry and I'll stop. Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement, and he's the reason we all have jobs. Google and Facebook might not have been possible in a world where you couldn't spin up a server for free and compile code without paying a license. Richard Stallman has said some sexist and edgy things. He als…

> I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. I take issue with this. I'm not hugely adept at history but from my understanding there has never been a time where you can just blurt out a communication and have it be "accepted" by society - this seems to me very American and appears very detached from reality and real world experience. Yes, you are…

> People will take offense at your crass jokes and delete you for it, perhaps it's best to step away and not click "reply" afterall.

Or do click "reply", because there are billions of people out there and some may take offense, but who cares? Billions of people don't. You can delete them right back, and billions of people will keep not caring.

That textarea only gives you a tiny bit of power and it gives everyone else the same tiny bit of power, so why should you fear their power more than they should fear yours?

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#207

Post by bartread »

mhh__ wrote: post #115
mhh__ wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Richard Stallman has said some sexist and edgy things. done some sexist and edgy things. On stage, spoken directly at women. Also, Stallman is a totally incompetent leader - the project is sufficiently niche that I won't name it, but the maintainer mentioned to me that he entered rms's bad book merely by virtue of having children.

C+P of a compelling list from the gcc mailing list I read: 1. 'skeptical that voluntarily pedophilia harms children.’ stallman's own archives 2006-mar-jun I note that children are incapable of consenting. That’s what the age of consent means. 2. 'end censorship of “child pornography”’. Stallman's archives 2012-jul-oct.html Notice use of “quotes” to down play what is actually being requested. 3. 'gentle expressions of…

> 10. ‘My first interaction with RMS was at a hacker con at 19. He asked my name, I gave it, whether I went to MIT (I had an MIT shirt on), and after confirmation I did, asked me on a date. I said no. That was our entire conversation.’ corbett's twitter feed. This is but one of many reports of utterly inappropriate social interactions.

Just in case anybody else picks up on this and wonders what's so wrong with asking a girl out on a date, based on when @corbett attended MIT, RMS would have been about 50 at the time. A ~50 year old man immediately asking out a 19 year old girl the first time he meets her, even if it were intended as a (bad) joke, registers as pretty damn creepy.

The other points, assuming true at face value, all seem well made.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#208

Post by bartread »

psychiatrist24 wrote: post #178
mhh__ wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C+P of a compelling list from the gcc mailing list I read: 1. 'skeptical that voluntarily pedophilia harms children.’ stallman's own archives 2006-mar-jun I note that children are incapable of consenting. That’s what the age of consent means. 2. 'end censorship of “child pornography”’. Stallman's archives 2012-jul-oct.html Notice use of “quotes” to down play what is actually being requested. 3. 'gentle expressions of…

Obviously the age of consent can be discussed, it even varies from country to country. I don't understand the EMACS virgin joke? I don't think asking women on dates is automatically "inappropriate behavior". How are men and women supposed to get together? Even in a "professional setting", because the feminist claim that it is demeaning to women if somebody is attracted to them is simply wrong. I can't claim RMS is "o…

> I don't think asking women on dates is automatically "inappropriate behavior".

In general I agree with you but in this specific instance RMS would have been about 50 years old at the time (please see my other comment in direct response to GP). 50 year old men asking out 19 year old women is very much inappropriate behaviour.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#209

Post by minitech »

the-dude wrote: post #112
minitech wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was reading comments in another HN thread, and one poster suggested that this might arise from raising kids without bullying. Like the immune system, if we don't develop a central tolerance, perhaps we start attacking everything we find unpleasant? No basis in behavioral science, of course. Forget basis in behavioral science, this has no basis in anything, and you’re deluded if you think kids aren’t still bullied…

The environment is profoundly different today than say, 40 years ago. Being different is much easier today. I was seduced by my parents to join a Judo club so I could stand up to myself ( this works wonders ). Last year, I confronted a new millenial neighbour of mine repeatedly on her behaviour of biking on the sidewalk. The biggest problem was she was doing blind corners as well. There are small children here playin…

Setting aside the issue of whether inconsiderate use of vehicles is a newly millennial phenomenon for the moment and considering what this is in reply to: are you saying that the situation could have been avoided if your neighbour had been bullied enough as a child?

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#210

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

Qwertious wrote: post #176
Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not matter if rms is a nice person or not. He didn't do anything criminal, his only offense is stoically and pedantically expressing his views, unyielding to public pressure. In other words, displaying those very qualities that helped him change software development forever. People should not be destroyed for not being nice enough to certain individuals prone to offenses, and conforming to someone else's view…

>It does not matter if rms is a nice person or not. If it impacts his effectiveness in leading the FSF, then it absolutely does matter. If he's abrasive, then nobody will want to work with him, and by extension people won't want to work with the FSF. We shouldn't have to play this politically-correct bullshit game of tiptoe: Richard Stallman's social skills are shit, and saying that he's not well suited to a people-f…

> If it impacts his effectiveness in leading the FSF, then it absolutely does matter.

He founded the damn thing. Let him lead the way he likes it. So far, he was quite successful in carrying with the organization's mission.

If you don't like the way he runs FSF, you can start your own foundation right now. No?

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