John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation • Hacker News Board

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#71

Post by incrudible » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 9:48 AM UTC

aboringusername wrote: post #23

risky_opinions wrote: post #9

I'm creating a throwaway that I hope won't irk dang. If this breaks the rules, I'm sorry and I'll stop. Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement, and he's the reason we all have jobs. Google and Facebook might not have been possible in a world where you couldn't spin up a server for free and compile code without paying a license. Richard Stallman has said some sexist and edgy things. He als…

> I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. I take issue with this. I'm not hugely adept at history but from my understanding there has never been a time where you can just blurt out a communication and have it be "accepted" by society - this seems to me very American and appears very detached from reality and real world experience. Yes, you are…

> Yes, you are accountable for the communications you make, whether via keybord, orally, or any other way.

I agree that you are accountable for the things you say. Unfortunately, people are attempting to hold RMS accountable for things he did not say. This situation is the result of willful misinterpretation and dishonest and sensationalist media reporting.

The principle of charity must be applied, particularly with people on the Autism spectrum, who aren't necessarily tuned to the sensibilities of society around them.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#72

Post by Andrew_nenakhov » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 9:48 AM UTC

bitwize wrote: post #17

I've given a lot of thought to this issue and though I've wanted to give Richard Stallman the benefit of the doubt, I've come to an inescapable conclusion: The FSF board of directors really stepped in it bringing Stallman back, especially in the clandestine manner that they did. They have squandered the goodwill of the community by promoting a controversial figure known for his toxic opinions and decades of bad behav…

> because of the toxic effect he has on the community, in particular driving women -- and more recently, those repulsed by pedophilia -- away.

Can you name one person who was driven away from contributing to free software because of Stallman? Sarah Mei? Lol. I believe that it is unlikely for someone _really_ willing to contribute to society to abandon this idea simply because some person he's never met being an unpleasant person. If that really turned someone off, the desire to participate was weaker than mild.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#73

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 9:48 AM UTC

Number157 wrote: post #37

bitwize wrote: post #17

I've given a lot of thought to this issue and though I've wanted to give Richard Stallman the benefit of the doubt, I've come to an inescapable conclusion: The FSF board of directors really stepped in it bringing Stallman back, especially in the clandestine manner that they did. They have squandered the goodwill of the community by promoting a controversial figure known for his toxic opinions and decades of bad behav…

This community is toxic and drives good but flawed people away.

[deleted]

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#74

Post by 2pEXgD0fZ5cF » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 9:48 AM UTC

zecg wrote: post #44

kosinus wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> American freedom of speech This specifically is such a weird expression. Other than that, just because Stallman did a good thing once, doesn’t excuse him from other mistakes. And making mistakes is not itself a problem, you can always own up to them and learn. But what I gather from the discussion is that there is a _pattern_ of bad behaviour.

> what I gather from the discussion is that there is a _pattern_ of bad behaviour. I disagree, it's all very much overblown.

I can't comment on most of the accusations, I have never met rms in person. But what really shocked me was that the authors of the anti rms letter label him as "transphobe", as a source for that claim they link to his GNU Kind Communications Guidelines [1], which to me spell the exact opposite. Why put such a claim in there?

I find it really disturbing that so many people willingly accept that it's ok to mix legitimate criticism (assuming it is) with what is basically lies. "Might as well call him a few other bad names while we're at it for maximum impact"?. Why?

[1]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#75

Post by keenreed » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 9:49 AM UTC

aboringusername wrote: post #13

I apologize if this particular thread isn't the appropriate forum for this but this type of activity is inevitable at one point or another, and perhaps he just wants to retire of there are politics/shenanigans at play, no organization can be free of politics afterall. Yet, there are many examples of software projects with "BDFLs", the Linux Kernel being the most prominent one I can think of. I suspect there are peopl…

Linux is mature enough to handle less centralization. Each distro already maintains its flavor of patches, there is Android fork, several embedded forks... It will be more similar to FreeBSD development.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#76

Post by matthewmacleod » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 9:49 AM UTC

risky_opinions wrote: post #9

I'm creating a throwaway that I hope won't irk dang. If this breaks the rules, I'm sorry and I'll stop. Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement, and he's the reason we all have jobs. Google and Facebook might not have been possible in a world where you couldn't spin up a server for free and compile code without paying a license. Richard Stallman has said some sexist and edgy things. He als…

I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds.

But this is a fantasy you made up. We've never lived in a society where you are free to say whatever you want and are isolated from all consequences of that.

In fact, you will almost certainly have some lines yourself. There are things that Stallman could have said, or actions that he could have taken, that you personally would agree made it untenable for him to keep his position. I'm unsure why you feel that your position is the only reasonable one to hold, and that anybody who has a different level of tolerance constitutes a "mob".

It feels like we're in the midst of a moral panic, but I don't think it's coming from who you seem to think it is.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#77

Post by p_l » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 9:49 AM UTC

mustafa_pasi wrote: post #31

user-the-name wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has not just "said some sexist and edgy thing". He is abusive against everyone around him. He has sexually harassed numerous women near him, to the point that people lock themselves in their offices when he visits. He is incredibly, incredibly toxic. He has had a huge crowd of people trying, again and again, to tell him to stop acting like this, and to be a decent human being. He refuses. He is a massive burden on…

> He is abusive against everyone around him. He has sexually harassed numerous women near him, to the point that people lock themselves in their offices when he visits. Then why didn't these women report him to the whoever competent authorities at MIT? Or to the police if the crime is serious enough? Why are they signing an open letter on the internet instead? Please don't parrot unfounded heresy.

Knowledge on RMS' behaviour tended to move slowly, probably heavily in part due to hero worship before one met him.

And I'm not talking about the horrific behaviour towards opposite sex, or other unprivileged groups. Tales of "I idolized RMS and thought he was at worst a bit hippy in behaviour then I met him and now I never want to again" tended to move word of mouth, sometimes with background feeling of "do not want to rock the boat, I want Free Software to flourish".

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#78

Post by vmception » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 9:49 AM UTC

haunter wrote: post #61

Says a lot about the HN community that a lot of people need to post under throwaways because there are legit others would otherwise go after them or their employers Say whatever you want about reddit but at least it's more anonym than this site

imagine not having sockpuppet accounts on HN [or reddit]

imagine posting under your real name and having all that in your bio

imagine thinking hackernews is different than a subreddit

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#79

Post by Guthur » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 9:49 AM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #47

clappski wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. Freedom of speech isn't the freedom to not be publicly judged about what you say.

>>> Freedom of speech isn't the freedom to not be publicly judged about what you say. Thank you for putting it so clearly.

The problem is who's deciding what is and isn't acceptable, RMS has been saying clearly derogatory statements about religion, the basis of most of our shared morality, for decades without a single peep from the virtue crowd. He says a few edgy this about something else and then the pitch forks are out.

The problem is that I'm not sure we have much of a shared morality any more.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#80

Post by Synaesthesia » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 9:49 AM UTC

enriquto wrote: post #11

risky_opinions wrote: post #9

I'm creating a throwaway that I hope won't irk dang. If this breaks the rules, I'm sorry and I'll stop. Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement, and he's the reason we all have jobs. Google and Facebook might not have been possible in a world where you couldn't spin up a server for free and compile code without paying a license. Richard Stallman has said some sexist and edgy things. He als…

> What do we do about this? There's not much we can do about that; the world is a horrible, unfair place. If Socrates was born again, we would kill him again.

Of course there's something we can do. We get to make choices.