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Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

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Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#171

Post by taurath »

goatinaboat wrote: post #47
taurath wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason for this is they think of people like they think about a server farm - and not just employees but customers too.

The reason for this is they think of people like they think about a server farm - and not just employees but customers too This is literally true, managers refer to workers as "resources". A resource is something that you use up and then discard. At least they are in their own way being honest about it.

HR stands for Human Resources so that’s somewhat common. It’s also common in businesses to treat their employees like that. Why’s this different? Because it’s like a return to factory line work before we had things like mandatory break times. When people are pissing in bottles because their delivery quota is so high they can’t take bathroom breaks, when every move they make is scrutinized by software, respect for the human worker’s needs is reduced even from the “human resource” perspective. The point of economic progress shouldn’t be more dehumanizion for ever cheaper products while asset prices explode.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#172

Post by tomhoward »

Arainach wrote: post #169
tomhoward wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The math is quite simple I know this happens in some contexts (eg environmental protections), but with regard to employee treatment in huge workforces, no, it really isn’t so simple, and you again provide no backing for the claim, just hand-waves. And you haven’t demonstrated your bigger claim: that there is a literally unlimited supply of people who would, at once, make good Amazon workers, and be so desperate for…

Here's a typical incident: https://www.sun-sentinel.com/entertainment/restaurants-and-b... Wage theft for years and what's the punishment? Pay it back. So best case the theft is never reported and the company wins. Worst case the company got a massive interest free loan. That's not punitive - that's carte blanche to keep doing it. There are 10 million unemployed people in America. That number doesn't include those th…

"Typical" is a nebulous and tenuous claim, and you've cited a single case of a business that is nothing like Amazon. It is a relatively small company (6 restaurants), and yes, they were force to pay back $314k. It seems it was the first time that business was found to have offended. If the legal system there is like it is in most places, subsequent offences will draw harsher penalties. Here's a report about some state and federal authorities starting to take criminal action against operators of companies who commit serious wage theft offences: https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/prosecutors....

Larger companies like Amazon, Tesla, Uber, Lyft, Instacart, DoorDash etc - but Amazon in particular, being so large/prominent - are under constant scrutiny from media, politicians/courts, unions/employee groups, labor activists, social media and discussion forums like this one. Sometimes the reports of the most serious incidents (people dying on the job or having to urinate in bottles as a routine part of the job) turn out to be exaggerated or falsified, so it can be hard for an impartial observer to know what the situation really is. But there are enough forces at play to motivate companies to keep wages and conditions at a humane level. (For the record, I've known people who have worked in warehouses for online retailers - one being a close friend in the US but not working for Amazon, and another being a relative who worked for Amazon here in Australia. Both have said the work was hard and conditions could have been better, but they weren't like prison camps or gulags.)

Your final paragraph is narrative and speculation, and I accept it's based on real issues, but it doesn't prove the specific claim you're basing your argument on: that there is an infinite supply of people both competent enough to do a good job for Amazon, but so desperate for work that they'll accept any level of mistreatment.

And getting back to the main point of the discussion: this thread now has 168 comments, and nobody has convincingly suggested a way in which this system can be used for anything other than safety, apart from insisting that it's a way for drivers to be blamed for safety transgressions that should be the company's responsibility, but without suggesting a way that the company could take full responsibility for safety without using some kind of system like this one.

It just looks like a case of anything Amazon (or any other large/powerful organisation or person) does, some people will insist that the worst conceivable motive for that thing simply must be the real one.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#173

Post by Arainach »

tomhoward wrote: post #172
Arainach wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a typical incident: https://www.sun-sentinel.com/entertainment/restaurants-and-b... Wage theft for years and what's the punishment? Pay it back. So best case the theft is never reported and the company wins. Worst case the company got a massive interest free loan. That's not punitive - that's carte blanche to keep doing it. There are 10 million unemployed people in America. That number doesn't include those th…

"Typical" is a nebulous and tenuous claim, and you've cited a single case of a business that is nothing like Amazon. It is a relatively small company (6 restaurants), and yes, they were force to pay back $314k. It seems it was the first time that business was found to have offended. If the legal system there is like it is in most places, subsequent offences will draw harsher penalties. Here's a report about some stat…

Constant surveillance can be used for something like the modern American legal system: Create enough offenses that everyone is guilty of something, and selectively punish those you otherwise want to punish. It's also a dystopian nightmare. Humans aren't perfect, and expecting them to be perfect every second of every day isn't humane, reasonable, or sane - especially when companies like Amazon have already tied everything to metrics and OKRs such that to keep their job, employees need to cut every corner they can get away with up to and including peeing in bottles instead of taking actual bathroom breaks.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#174

Post by bostonsre »

kodah wrote: post #158
bostonsre wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think people are perpetuating a "narrative" about how it sucks to be a cog why exactly? You honestly think we are secret socialists arguing against Amazon? I love my cushy tech job where I get paid ridiculously for what doesn't feel like an actual job. I just happen to know people on those bottom rungs and how much it sucks. Put yourself in the shoes of each layer of a bureaucratic organization like Amazon. Most…

First, looks like you judged that I'm economically conservative and I am not. My point was that the author isn't talking about the poor, they're talking about a problem with technocracy that seeks to define you by metrics. As a SRE you should be keenly aware of the shortcomings of such approaches. The story you've told here is not far from the journey I had as a software engineer coming from the military in the Midwe…

I am arguing against the use of the "It's that narrative" phrase that is said like someone is playing a trump card and for some reason just makes other arguments null and void. Sorry if I misinterpreted your response, I assumed you thought similarly to others that have posted using that phrase and I tried to engage in a discussion to push for you to explain your reasoning and consider alternatives. I don't assume anything about you except that you are more likely than not like me and many others on this forum, extremely fortunate. I too have experienced that bottom rung and I'm tired of the zuckerberg like hubris that some have in our community where people act like they are disrupting the world for better in cases where they disrupt incumbents by scaling exploitation of that power rung. I try to push back on it when I can to show different perspectives. To me, the dismissal of the plight of Amazon workers and the lower class is one and the same. Amazon is new to the game, but they approach everything with ruthless cunning.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#175

Post by bostonsre »

tomhoward wrote: post #113
Arainach wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon measures all of the numbers and fires its "less productive" workers. There's a never ending supply of desperately poor people, so they have a constant stream of people to work as fast as physically possible until they burn out. This is baked into their entire philosophy - it applies to warehouse workers, drivers, and software engineers.

"There's a never ending supply of desperately poor people" There is such a thing as government-mandated conditions in most places even in the US (I'm not from the US but I'm not that stupid), and even if not, at a certain point people are better off doing nothing than being so badly abused, and there is always a better option below a certain level of mistreatment. This commentary is just-so narrative, not serious dis…

What options does a warehouse worker or a package delivery guy have if they want to care for a family to the best of their ability. These jobs are tough but they pay slightly not than most. Going to work for McDonald's and earning 25k a year does not put enough food on the table. People grit their teeth and bare it because they have no other recourse or options.

> This commentary is just-so narrative, not serious discussion.

Why don't you engage in a discussion to try to see the other side's opinion. Shouting "It's a narrative" and plugging your ears is not some trump card that automatically wins an argument.

Others and myself are not some socialist cabal secretly trying to take down capitalism. I get paid way too much for stuff that doesn't feel like a real job. I love capitalism but don't see why we can't have a softer flavor of it. It is tough on the bottom rung of society and companies like Amazon have the resources to make lots of people happy and content with their jobs.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#176

Post by bostonsre »

pedrosorio wrote: post #150
bostonsre wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon is just the new kid on the block, companies have been doing this for a long time now. I have friends that are or have been the lowest cogs in these massive shipping and delivery machines. The top rung of Amazon doesn't dictate policy down to those lowest cogs. There are layers and layers of middle management who have very few dials to tweak. If those managers want to advance their careers they don't have many…

“ It absolutely sucks on the bottom rung, yet those on the bottom know that they have very few if any better options to provide for their families. (...) there is a massive amount of unhappy people that are tired of getting squeezed by anyone with authority (...) the hilarious thing is that so much human despair can be alleviated by just acknowledging how hard it is down there and giving the bottom rung an extra quar…

They are going through that suffering for money. Giving raises that aren't too insultingly low gives them slightly more for that suffering and provides some additional well being by giving people hope that their lives will get better and that maybe it won't be so bad later.

> If anything it sounds like it makes it even less economically viable to leave the dystopian environment they are in.

Economically viable for the large corporation but not for those on the bottom. Why does the maximization of shareholder value deserve to be the only consideration? Amazon skirts tax laws to save billions while taking advantage of selling within the United States. Why shouldn't we as a society say that those on the bottom deserve a slightly less bad life?

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#177

Post by tomhoward »

bostonsre wrote: post #175
tomhoward wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There's a never ending supply of desperately poor people" There is such a thing as government-mandated conditions in most places even in the US (I'm not from the US but I'm not that stupid), and even if not, at a certain point people are better off doing nothing than being so badly abused, and there is always a better option below a certain level of mistreatment. This commentary is just-so narrative, not serious dis…

What options does a warehouse worker or a package delivery guy have if they want to care for a family to the best of their ability. These jobs are tough but they pay slightly not than most. Going to work for McDonald's and earning 25k a year does not put enough food on the table. People grit their teeth and bare it because they have no other recourse or options. > This commentary is just-so narrative, not serious dis…

> Why don't you engage in a discussion to try to see the other side's opinion

I've been engaging in discussion with the other side for over 20 hours and have written over a dozen comments, in a good faith effort to fully understand every other commenter's position. Hardly plugging my ears.

> I get paid way too much for stuff that doesn't feel like a real job. I love capitalism

For what it's worth, neither of those statements apply to me.

I've never earned huge amounts of money, I work long and stressful hours for the income I make, and I'm deeply curious about different economic and social systems that can make life better for people, particularly those at the very bottom.

The reason I engage in a discussion like this is to better understand what the real underlying issues are and what solutions are available.

I get dispirited when the arguments come down to simplistic takes to the effect that it's all simply a matter of evil giant corporations paying too little and treating workers badly, and if they just paid people more and treated people more nicely everything would be better. That's what I mean by "narrative". It's a nice-sounding just-so story, but overlooks a whole lot of really important detail.

After a 25+ year period in which I've studied business/economics at tertiary level, read/examined/contemplated economic and social issues very deeply for that entire time, been a business operator, an employee, a contractor and a volunteer in all kinds of different organisations at all levels and taken a deep interest in the issues for the most needy in society, I've come to understand there's a bit more to it than that.

Please don't assume that if someone is asking questions and making points that challenge the explanation you've settled on, it has to be because they care less than you do about those who are not well off.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#178

Post by mft_ »

oceanplexian wrote: post #126
mft_ wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Amazon + cameras + AI + sensationalism = clicks? To me, the idea of an algorithm which detects when a driver is at increased risk (e.g. drowsy, or not wearing a seatbelt, or maybe using a phone inappropriately) seems like a fundamentally good move. And makes basic sense in any vehicle still piloted by a human. The issue is that (of course) people being watched by a camera opens the potential of misuse, and so…

> To me, the idea of an algorithm which detects when a driver is at increased risk (e.g. drowsy, or not wearing a seatbelt, or maybe using a phone inappropriately) seems like a fundamentally good move. And makes basic sense in any vehicle still piloted by a human. I have a counter proposal. How about instead of trying to micromanage employees, companies raise the hiring bar? If you don't want people working for you w…

(Late coming back to this, but) I totally agree with you.

My original comment was addressing the sensationalism applied to an idea... because it was associated with Amazon and/or AI and/or cameras, etc. I wasn't for a moment intending to support Amazon's overall approach to its employees.

That said, it doesn't have to either/or: I still think that such algorithms (if they work sufficiently well) make sense to be used in any vehicle (commercial or private, Amazon or otherwise) piloted by a human, given obvious human weaknesses & variability, and the damage that badly-driven vehicles can do.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#179

Post by LinuxBender »

Lendal wrote: post #63
tomhoward wrote: post #29

Maybe it's just that I live in Australia, a country that has very strict road safety laws and practices, which are generally supported by the community, given that our road fatality figures are now very low (in 2019 we had just under 1200 road deaths in a nation of 25.3M people - a low rate by world standards, particularly given how much we drive here). But I just don't see the cause for outrage over this - as long a…

I don't think it's really about the AI at all. The article mentioned a live feed which the AI activates so that your can be berated by a real-live person. From personal experience, I feel like that's what the quitting is truly about. I have quit a job before over surveillance cameras but that was back in 1980's, long before AI. The work environment there was oppressive, and not just due to the surveillance cameras. T…

Agreed. I would add that all of my cheap stand alone GPS devices have had this capability for a long time without the need of AI or network connectivity. They give an audible warning that I am in a school zone or going too fast for where I am. The school alert was enabled by default on two models and the speed limit warning had to be enabled. I have a heavy foot.

I would never work for someone that has to watch me on camera, unless of course being on camera was my job.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#180

Post by _ktx2 »

bostonsre wrote: post #174
kodah wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, looks like you judged that I'm economically conservative and I am not. My point was that the author isn't talking about the poor, they're talking about a problem with technocracy that seeks to define you by metrics. As a SRE you should be keenly aware of the shortcomings of such approaches. The story you've told here is not far from the journey I had as a software engineer coming from the military in the Midwe…

I am arguing against the use of the "It's that narrative" phrase that is said like someone is playing a trump card and for some reason just makes other arguments null and void. Sorry if I misinterpreted your response, I assumed you thought similarly to others that have posted using that phrase and I tried to engage in a discussion to push for you to explain your reasoning and consider alternatives. I don't assume any…

You can argue for class representation but it doesn't need to be a component of every argument. Here, it was needlessly interjected and is distracting to the main point.

You did assume things about me and that was wrong. You "and others" have to share this forum with a great many people, people who come from both prestigious backgrounds and people without. If you want to convince someone of something then you end up having to speak to them on their turf. You can't engage in moralizing language or act condescendingly, as you did me. It tunes people out and makes them perpetual enemies of not just you, but your cause.

This obsession with talk of power is very murky and non-descriptive. Even the class-warfare talk is murky. They're not points you're going to win with conservatives if that's the discussion you're thinking you're going to offer "different perspectives" on. When I talk to conservatives I talk to them about economics on their level. They have poor people too, Democrats spent years making fun of their "poor and uneducated". On Friday I had a manager tell me all about how "blue collar and uneducated" people in the South are a problem, simply because I'm from the South. It was astonishing rhetoric, but not uncommon from certain communities. Nobody will listen to garbage like that and I certainly wouldn't if I were them.

Instead, I talk to conservatives about how the education system misses the mark when it comes to portions of the population, which includes them and liberals, and how better education is a driving force in not only a better economy but their lower classes as well. Assuming people don't have empathy for the poor is where people get things twisted. Many people who present arguments that tow a hard-line on economics came from tough backgrounds as well. In their worldview, the world is a tough-to-survive place and that is just a fact of life to them. Upending that worldview can't be done with moralism, shame, or guilt. It must be addressed through understanding and empathy, none of which you would've communicated in your earlier response.

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