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Deriving Keys from Chords in Music

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Re: Deriving Keys from Chords in Music

#11

Post by acmj »

nemetroid wrote: post #10
acmj wrote: post #8

I am no musician. I heard quite a few musicians, with or without innate perfect pitch, can tell the keys in a chord, though maybe not to the 100% accuracy. For example, something like what the kid is doing in this video [1]. I am a bit surprised that this can't be done programmatically. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXivZlPu0ms&t=175s

”Key” in this context refers to key signature rather than physical keys on a keyboard.

Thanks for the correction, but the key signature in a piece may be changing. Also, those with perfect pitch can tell the key signature from a short passage if there are few accidentals.

Re: Deriving Keys from Chords in Music

#12

Post by ksherlock »

acmj wrote: post #8

I am no musician. I heard quite a few musicians, with or without innate perfect pitch, can tell the keys in a chord, though maybe not to the 100% accuracy. For example, something like what the kid is doing in this video [1]. I am a bit surprised that this can't be done programmatically. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXivZlPu0ms&t=175s

Fast Fourier transform can be used to identify the pitches in a sounds sample. There are other methods but FFT gets the most press.

Re: Deriving Keys from Chords in Music

#13

Post by frogulis »

om2 wrote: post #4

This post shows that some very simplistic algorithms can’t unambiguously determine a key. But I don’t think it establishes that a more sophisticated algorithm could not. Key center is not just based on chords and notes in a scale. It’s based on the note/chord that seems like the place where the music is at rest, or at home. Many songs have non-diatonic chords, but it’s still fairly obvious what key they are in. That…

Adam Neely released a pretty in-depth video recently with the opinion that Hey Joe is straight-forwardly in the key of E, as long as you don't get stuck trying to fit it into a diatonic, traditional Western framework. It's a good watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVvmALPu5TU

I had an unanswered question after the video -- are there listeners who don't feel that sense of "home" when arriving at the E chord? I certainly do feel "at home" on the E, but I'd be curious to hear others' opinions.

Re: Deriving Keys from Chords in Music

#15

Post by yesenadam »

Talking about this stuff without saying what kind of music you mean seems a little silly. There is a reference to "one popular song", and it seems the author is thinking of pop music. But it seems most things that can be said about keys/chords in one genre/tradition/style, don't apply to others. And even within genres, things naturally evolve so that old rules no longer apply.

Re: Deriving Keys from Chords in Music

#16

Post by lc9er »

frogulis wrote: post #13
om2 wrote: post #4

This post shows that some very simplistic algorithms can’t unambiguously determine a key. But I don’t think it establishes that a more sophisticated algorithm could not. Key center is not just based on chords and notes in a scale. It’s based on the note/chord that seems like the place where the music is at rest, or at home. Many songs have non-diatonic chords, but it’s still fairly obvious what key they are in. That…

Adam Neely released a pretty in-depth video recently with the opinion that Hey Joe is straight-forwardly in the key of E, as long as you don't get stuck trying to fit it into a diatonic, traditional Western framework. It's a good watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVvmALPu5TU I had an unanswered question after the video -- are there listeners who don't feel that sense of "home" when arriving at the E chord? I cer…

I think context is important. If you are talking about guitar based music, then E is a pretty safe bet as home. But what if a group doesn’t use standard tuning? The first two examples that come to mind are Alice In Chains and Tool. They use E flat tuning and drop-d tuning, respectively (mostly). When I listen to them, Eb and D are home.

Re: Deriving Keys from Chords in Music

#19

Post by ragona »

lc9er wrote: post #16
frogulis wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adam Neely released a pretty in-depth video recently with the opinion that Hey Joe is straight-forwardly in the key of E, as long as you don't get stuck trying to fit it into a diatonic, traditional Western framework. It's a good watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVvmALPu5TU I had an unanswered question after the video -- are there listeners who don't feel that sense of "home" when arriving at the E chord? I cer…

I think context is important. If you are talking about guitar based music, then E is a pretty safe bet as home. But what if a group doesn’t use standard tuning? The first two examples that come to mind are Alice In Chains and Tool. They use E flat tuning and drop-d tuning, respectively (mostly). When I listen to them, Eb and D are home.

It feels like home because of the key of the song, not the instrument. Sometimes the guitar is tuned to play a song where the key matches the lowest string, but many songs are of course played in other keys.

Re: Deriving Keys from Chords in Music

#20

Post by dizzystar »

elihu wrote: post #6

One useful heuristic (at least, the one I usually go to first if I'm not sure what key a song is in) is that root of the final chord of the song is often the same as the root of the key. I suppose that probably works better for some music traditions than others. Also I believe some songs in a minor key sometimes end by converting the root chord to major.

This is a good point, though there are many common patterns, some start at 1 and others do not.
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