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The WHO-China search for the origins of the coronavirus

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Re: The WHO-China search for the origins of the coronavirus

#151
post #142

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-lab-theory-robert-redfiel... CBS News, yesterday: Kristian G. Andersen, director of the infectious disease genomics, translational research institute at Scripps Research, noted that "We know that the first epidemiologically linked cluster of cases came from the Hunan market and we know the virus was found in environmental samples — including animal cages — at the market," he said. "…

We know that patient 0 was not at the market, and that people at the market got infected. So, perfectly valid scenario: 1. Scientists do controversial Gain-of-function research by collecting viruses from miles away and importing them to Wuhan. 2. Lab leak happens 3. First linked clusters pop up a few miles away in a rather unsanitary market, with plenty of reservoirs and infection possibilities. 4. Virus is found in…

What's frustrating about this is I feel like it doesn't matter how much evidence there is for the emerging consensus that it emerged from an animal at the market.

The counter-argument is still always, "Yes, yes, but what if instead of that maybe it somehow came from a badly-run lab instead?"

Re: The WHO-China search for the origins of the coronavirus

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likely, no one would notice anything unusual at all for months. The WIV simply doesn't hide samples for long enough for this to be a likely scenario. By the way, it's estimated there's multiple hundred infections by novel coronavirus pathogens in China every year. So why would the much lower number of viral escapes be considered beyond it when we have the additional constrait of the sample not having been shared with…

Did they immediately publish the details of every gain-of-function coronavirus experiment they ever did, or does it sit in a notebook or a private database for some period of time? A lag time of 4-6 weeks seems reasonable here, not 6 months. There still seems to be room for a natural origin, but to say a lab escape is completely impossible because one of maybe a dozen people (or less) would have been both willing and…

They don't immediately make articles about them no. However, they don't work alone - if you read articles from the WIV on the matter every single one of them is made in collaboration with international researchers, which would have had access to notebooks and private databases.

4-6 weeks is lower than what we've seen abroad - in Italy between the likely patient zero in September 2019 and the first official case in late february, 5 months had gone.

Re: The WHO-China search for the origins of the coronavirus

#153

> One problem with the lab leak theory is that it presumes the Chinese are lying or hiding facts, a position incompatible with a joint scientific effort. LOLOLOLOL Excuse me while I pick myself up off the floor. Doesn’t the default assumption about an authoritarian government have to be that it is lying and hiding facts that would harm it?

Please don't take HN threads straight into flamewar hell. That's basically vandalism.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: The WHO-China search for the origins of the coronavirus

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part 6 is about a paper published in PLoS Pathogens. It says nothing about safety concerns.

You are pointing out one section while ignoring another. What about the last sentence regarding WIV scientists studying human-disease causing SARS coronaviruses until "permission is granted" by China's NHFCP? The one with the redacted bit at the front? I'm not sure if you are intentionally playing games with words here but let's cut to the chase. Edit: Reading through your comment history and submissions, I can see t…

You've broken the site guidelines badly here, regardless of what any other account has been doing.

Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules.

Re: The WHO-China search for the origins of the coronavirus

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are pointing out one section while ignoring another. What about the last sentence regarding WIV scientists studying human-disease causing SARS coronaviruses until "permission is granted" by China's NHFCP? The one with the redacted bit at the front? I'm not sure if you are intentionally playing games with words here but let's cut to the chase. Edit: Reading through your comment history and submissions, I can see t…

> What about the last sentence regarding WIV scientists studying human-disease causing SARS coronaviruses until "permission is granted" by China's NHFCP? What about it? This isn't any kind of warning that the lab is unsafe. It's completely normal (and good) for countries to regulate research into pathogens. Would you rather that China not require approval before labs study SARS-CoV? I honestly don't think you underst…

Please omit swipes from your HN comments. Your comment would be fine without the last sentence, and actually you don't need "What about it?" either.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: The WHO-China search for the origins of the coronavirus

#156
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Partly agree, but also keep in mind that the CCP is by nature secretive and authoritarian. IMO the cover-up still shifts the probability, but less than it might in another country where cover-ups are less "business as usual".

Note that the initial outbreak in USA was also covered up.

Source?

Re: The WHO-China search for the origins of the coronavirus

#158
post #100
post #59

> “If this is a man-made catastrophe,” says Miles Yu, an analyst with the conservative Hudson Institute, “I think the world should seek reparations.” That would open an interesting can of worms. 1. It is common under many (most?) legal systems for those harmed by another's negligence to have a duty to mitigate damages. For example, if I'm burning something on my property and an ember from my fire sets something on fi…

Frankly, if this did come from a lab in China, I doubt there would be any repercussions. What would happen, additional tariffs on Chinese products, or sanctions against certain CCP officials? I believe the latter is more likely than the former.

China have been giving generous loans to sketchy govts for decades, knowing that defaults will likely occur, and this will result in the Chinese govt having moral authority to seize assets like ports (eg. In Sri Lanka).

China being culpable for covid means that their moral authority to collect on prior debts by seizing assets is brought into question.

Anytime someone in a position of power starts trying to discredit others with terms like "conspiracy theory" or "misinformation", their motives should be heavily questioned.

Anyone talking about lab leak as a "conspiracy theory" is either stupid or heavily conflicted.

Re: The WHO-China search for the origins of the coronavirus

#159
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> SARS-CoV and SARS-CoV-2 make really poor bioweapons Often heard this, including from experts in bioscience (I am not one, you sound more like it). So early on I did a search on Google Scholar for things like: SARS bioweapon to see what I could come up with. Turns out there is a lot of biosecurity and biowarfare literature from before the outbreak, which have entire chapters for SARS coronavirus as a weapon. I reall…

I'm not an expert in bioscience, I simply spent a while studying it. There is biosecurity and biowarfare literature on pretty much every single virus you can imagine - generally it's about how it might be modified to be used as a bioweapon. And really, coronaviruses are quite good platforms for making debilitating airborne weapons. SARS-CoV itself as a bioweapon is simply not infectious enough, it was sucessfully con…

SARS-CoV in its natural form is an interesting bioweapon.

No known treatment or vaccine. Targets the decision makers (presidents and ministers and military generals are older, and a virus is easier to reach them, than a bullet is). SARS-CoV has super-spreader events, and asymptomatic spread, making it very difficult to contain. It spreads incredibly easily (near-airborne), in confined spaces such as airplanes, but even the toilet plumbing, or shared airco. It offers plausible deniability, by pointing to a natural spill-over event or unsanitary meat markets. It causes enormous economic damage (the economy, not the cannon fodder, being the subject of modern warfare) and cultural damage (tracking and containment is costly and invasive as it damages trust in a free society). It is most readily available to small states and terrorist groups by extracting from live civet cats. Military-aged terrorists spreading SARS-CoV by simply boarding airplanes and visiting hot spots, and not even dying themselves, so they can do it all over again. SARS-CoV in first stages has vague symptoms, similar to other, more common viruses, which would give a pandemic a head start. Pandemics are good PR for fear-based terrorism. The strain on the hospitals is enormous, and military-aged men are too worried to reserve a bed for their elderly parents or their recovery.

More in the vast literature.

> SARS-CoV-2 is complete trash as a bioweapon.

If complete trash, I would not be afraid of Iran being able to press a button and release SARS-CoV-3 for a 2020 repeat. Even if looking at viral bioweapons from the comical anthrax perspective: SARS-CoV-2 killed over 2 million people.

> that the existence of the sample would almost certaintly be known.

Yes. It would make sense that it would be known. And if it would be known, that would probably sufficiently proof the lab leak hypothesis and end this quarrel. We wouldn't need to talk about probabilities much anymore. But that same argument kinda also works against the zoonotic origin hypothesis. It would make a lot of sense that after a year, we found the intermediate host, or patient 0. If there was a clear epidemiological explanation for a zoonotic origin, it would almost certainly be known. Maybe there really isn't.

Re: The WHO-China search for the origins of the coronavirus

#160
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an expert in bioscience, I simply spent a while studying it. There is biosecurity and biowarfare literature on pretty much every single virus you can imagine - generally it's about how it might be modified to be used as a bioweapon. And really, coronaviruses are quite good platforms for making debilitating airborne weapons. SARS-CoV itself as a bioweapon is simply not infectious enough, it was sucessfully con…

SARS-CoV in its natural form is an interesting bioweapon. No known treatment or vaccine. Targets the decision makers (presidents and ministers and military generals are older, and a virus is easier to reach them, than a bullet is). SARS-CoV has super-spreader events, and asymptomatic spread, making it very difficult to contain. It spreads incredibly easily (near-airborne), in confined spaces such as airplanes, but ev…

>No known treatment or vaccine. Targets the decision makers (presidents and ministers and military generals are older, and a virus is easier to reach them, than a bullet is). SARS-CoV has super-spreader events, and asymptomatic spread, making it very difficult to contain. It spreads incredibly easily (near-airborne), in confined spaces such as airplanes, but even the toilet, or shared airco. It offers plausible deniability, by pointing to a natural spill-over event or unsanitary meat markets. It causes enormous economic damage (the economy, not the cannon fodder, being the subject of modern warfare) and cultural damage (tracking is costly and invasive as it damages trust). It is most readily available to small states and terrorist groups by extracting from live civet cats. Military-aged terrorists spreading SARS-CoV by simply boarding airplanes and visiting hot spots, and not even dying themselves, so they can do it all over again. SARS-CoV in first stages has vague symptoms, similar to other, more common viruses, which would give a pandemic a head start. Pandemics are good PR for fear-based terrorism. The strain on the hospitals is enormous, and military-aged men are too worried to reserve a bed for their elderly parents or their recovery.

Not true - there are basically known vaccines to SARS-CoV, they just never got to human efficacy trials because the disease went extinct. But, given their efficacy when repurposed as SARS-CoV-2 vaccines, they were probably quite effective.

As for super-spreading events, this is a double edged sword. It makes it very infectious when nothing is being done to try and stop it, but it means that if there are even cursory measures the chances of the infection stalling are much higher as you're relying on a low number of people actually spreading it.

SARS-CoV may have vague symptoms in the early stages - but it has symptoms. You want a virus that can spread asymptomatically for it to be a major burden, so that makes it less useful.

If your goal is to strain hospitals and create fear, by far the best tools would be humanized avian flu, or a vaccine resistant strain of measles.

>Yes. It would make sense that it would be known. And if it would be known, that would probably sufficiently proof the lab leak hypothesis and end this quarrel. We wouldn't need to talk about probabilities much anymore. But that same argument kinda also works against the zoonotic origin hypothesis. It would make a lot of sense that after a year, we found the intermediate host, or patient 0. If there was a clear epidemiological explanation for a zoonotic origin, it would almost certainly be known. Maybe there really isn't.

I think you're missing the point. If there was a lab escape, the likelihood for the sample to be known is very high. This means that given priors of no known samples, the likelihood for a lab escape is lower.

It's also completely unrealistic to expect to find the host or patient zero after a year for a zoonosis. It took 40 years to find the intermediate host for Ebola, and four years to find it for SARS. For some epidemics, we never found a solid intermediate host. Patient zeros are basically never found, either, unless the disease is incredibly pathogenic and virulent - which SARS-CoV-2 isn't. If you look towards past epidemics that originated from zoonosis with a similar disease profile, you will find that it takes years to decades to conclusively find an intermediate host, and that patient zero is basically never found with any degree of certainty, meaning that the current scenario is perfectly congruent with expectations.

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