Employees are happier when led by people with deep expertise (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Employees are happier when led by people with deep expertise (2016)

#201

Post by hashkb » Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 3:56 PM UTC

musingsole wrote: post #196

hashkb wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know what I mean (-: At a certain point, you've got to stop pumping the gas. You want the company to outlive you. Gas needs to get pumped after you're gone. You fade into the background and replace yourself; others carry on your legacy. You cash out and ski six days a week or whatever. Edit: some legends are bullshit. Scale that up and it's called "toxic culture".

Yeah...you meant what you meant. I mean your words apply to things like Jesus.

That's a different kind of legend. Point taken, but I don't think that many companies I worked at we're cults. Half, tops.

Re: Employees are happier when led by people with deep expertise (2016)

#202

Post by Layke1123 » Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 7:41 PM UTC

ska wrote: post #155

whatshisface wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There isn't a CEO in the world that could do all of the jobs they hire other executives to do (finance, sales, tax/accounting, HR, marketing, technology, operations, legal). It's impossible. Impossible, yet accomplished by thousands and thousands of small business owners every month.

> Impossible, yet accomplished by thousands and thousands of small business owners every month. It's an appealing thought, but really they are doing a different job. Vast majority of those thousands of small business owners couldn't effectively step into one of those roles at even a mid-sized corp, let alone all of them.

Apparently actual CEOs can't either judging by the number of them that get golden parachutes for running a business into the ground.

Re: Employees are happier when led by people with deep expertise (2016)

#203

Post by proc0 » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 8:00 PM UTC

dandanua wrote: post #5

On the other hand, if your boss thinks he can do your job (and do it even better than you), while in fact he can't – you will get the worst nightmare.

This seems to the be the norm in tech companies, however I'm not saying it's an easy challenge to solve, since it seems unfeasible that everyone should know how do the coding/engineering job. Inevitably managers have to decide at some point to get off that bus, so to speak, and focus more on management skills, sacrificing the time needed to keep up with tech skills.

Re: Employees are happier when led by people with deep expertise (2016)

#204

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 11:00 PM UTC

bluefirebrand wrote: post #26

commandlinefan wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know - in my experience as a programmer, when I work for somebody that's never worked as a programmer, they tend to estimate based on how long they wish something would take (which is usually an hour, two max). Ex-programmers turned managers who still code from time to time are far more realistic about how long something might take to complete.

My experience with the > Ex-programmers turned managers who still code from time to time are far more realistic about how long something might take to complete. Is that they had huge egos and thought they could do everything in much less time than I could, or would just "put in the time to make sure it was done when it had to be" So nah, I prefer not having ex programmers as my manager.

I have my supervisor and my lead I work under. My lead fortunately is very good and understanding of these things, but he also is kind of like that as well.

My supervisor has absolutely no clue and just wants updates; thats all.

Re: Employees are happier when led by people with deep expertise (2016)

#205

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 11:05 PM UTC

HenryBemis wrote: post #34

MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #4

I don't mind if my boss can't do my job. I mind if my boss can't do my job AND tells me how I should do it. The major difference there is one is support and tracking, the other is just incompetent in all areas if management.

What if.. your boss doesn't know how to do your job, BUT he knows the requirements around it? E.g. I am an amateur coder. Anyone who has typed 3 pages of code without looking up on a book or a website, is x100 better than me. If someone decides to make me the leader of coders, I won't tell them "I command you to use this syntax over that paremeter (?)" (coz I'm like Jon Snow.. I know nothing), but I WILL tell them to…

I personally like your management style just based off of how your wrote that. I respect it a ton and as long as you give me the time and understand where my skills may or may not be at, I thrive in that environment. I try to give myself goals, but when things are ambiguous, it's very hard to do that. So long as you get that and that coding is just like any art form: It's done when it's done. You can't magically make a pot by smashing clay; you can't make the mona lisa by just tossing on paint. Since programming is logical, it requires a different way of thinking and often times it's as creative as an art form. Demanding it gets done by "X" is ignoring the fact that not everybody is Da Vinci.

Re: Employees are happier when led by people with deep expertise (2016)

#206

Post by devoutsalsa » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 4:59 PM UTC

zmmmmm wrote: post #195

devoutsalsa wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another nightmare is needing your boss' help & not getting it because your boss simply chooses not to help. Early in my dev career I ended up w/ an smart, unhelpful manager. They were the only person in the company w/ Scala experience, and I needed to touch a Scala service as a fairly green developer. I asked my boss for help, and was denied. I later found out that my boss had recommended against hiring me during my…

I'm sorry to hear about that situation. Having said that, I am possibly a bit like your boss. I am a major bottleneck to my employees, and they struggle to overcome technical skill gaps between their knowledge and what they need to work on. Frequently I find they are blocked for days or weeks and when I finally get to sit down or spend time with them, their problem is sometimes solved within minutes. Sometimes I rese…

I guess a lot of it comes down to what you expect of your employees. If you expect them to figure out it for themselves, and you give them enough time to do it, then maybe it's OK. If you are constantly demanding everything & offering nothing, then you have a problem.

My advice is that if you know what someone needs to work on, and they don't, just frikkin' say it. Don't wait until they are burned & trying to drag a merge request across the finish line. Also invest in tooling & processes that encourage people to figure things out & generally do better (which may be simply don't give them excuses to do worse).

Re: Employees are happier when led by people with deep expertise (2016)

#207

Post by devoutsalsa » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 5:01 PM UTC

nine_zeros wrote: post #187

devoutsalsa wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another nightmare is needing your boss' help & not getting it because your boss simply chooses not to help. Early in my dev career I ended up w/ an smart, unhelpful manager. They were the only person in the company w/ Scala experience, and I needed to touch a Scala service as a fairly green developer. I asked my boss for help, and was denied. I later found out that my boss had recommended against hiring me during my…

Another experience bin the same vein is if you ask the boss for some help and come review time, they ding you for it. This especially stings if it comes from a team lead because in my mind, the team lead exists to bounce ideas off of and to iron out issues. But if you ever see a team lead or manager dinging you for just reaching out to them, switch teams or quit.

> This especially stings if it comes from a team lead because in my mind, the team lead exists to bounce ideas off of and to iron out issues.

Sounds like the Team Pb XD

Re: Employees are happier when led by people with deep expertise (2016)

#208

Post by ccmonnett » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #106

skohan wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> probably not top 5-10%, because they also cared about the non-technical requirements that a good manager needs to cover It sounds like you're saying that top-tier engineers are not generally qualified in terms of non-technical requirements, and I don't know that this assertion is justified. From my perspective, as a relatively new technical manager who also spent years as an engineer working with technical managers…

>top-tier engineers are not generally qualified in terms of non-technical requirements It's just that both sets of somewhat orthogonal skills are less likely to reside in one person. An analogy from baseball is why are pitchers generally lousy hitters (even pre-DH)? Did they get less practice? Probably. But it's also the case that (again even pre-DH) any ability to do more than lay down a bunt was absolutely a nice l…

This analogy is interesting because it kind of proves you're both 'right', depending on the environment.

In middle/high school, there is often 'that kid' who _is_ the best at all skills - they are the pitcher, they bat cleanup, they do everything.

In the pros, though, that's virtually unheard of these days, because the amount of time it takes to specialize in a skill sufficiently to make it to the majors is so extreme it precludes you from being able to do that for multiple skills, with rare exceptions.

Not disagreeing with you, or at least I don't intend to, but I definitely remember playing against 'that kid' when I played baseball in middle and high school. Same analogy for the kid who's great at several sports in HS but has to specialize to get the DI scholarship or go pro, etc.

Re: Employees are happier when led by people with deep expertise (2016)

#209

Post by ccmonnett » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

zmmmmm wrote: post #195

devoutsalsa wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another nightmare is needing your boss' help & not getting it because your boss simply chooses not to help. Early in my dev career I ended up w/ an smart, unhelpful manager. They were the only person in the company w/ Scala experience, and I needed to touch a Scala service as a fairly green developer. I asked my boss for help, and was denied. I later found out that my boss had recommended against hiring me during my…

I'm sorry to hear about that situation. Having said that, I am possibly a bit like your boss. I am a major bottleneck to my employees, and they struggle to overcome technical skill gaps between their knowledge and what they need to work on. Frequently I find they are blocked for days or weeks and when I finally get to sit down or spend time with them, their problem is sometimes solved within minutes. Sometimes I rese…

You need to scold your children.

That's a metaphor - of course you shouldn't treat your reports like children. But if they possess the following attitude, it's on you as the manager to let them know that it's not an acceptable practice on your team.

> they seem to take an attitude that if they hit something they don't already know, it's perfectly reasonable to stop progressing it and just declare they need help

This advice doesn't stand on its own; you'll need both more specific tactics and a broader strategy for dealing with the situation (providing tooling or scaffolding for improving their behavior). But the fact of the matter is that everything else you do for them won't matter if you condone this behavior - which you are, by allowing it to keep happening.

PS I am an engineer-turned-manager and this is easily the least favorite part of the job for me as I get used to it. But it is ultimately your responsibility to do so, and you are impeding your own ability to improve as a manager the longer you resist doing it.

Re: Employees are happier when led by people with deep expertise (2016)

#210

Post by jeffyang » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 5:35 PM UTC

zmmmmm wrote: post #195

devoutsalsa wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another nightmare is needing your boss' help & not getting it because your boss simply chooses not to help. Early in my dev career I ended up w/ an smart, unhelpful manager. They were the only person in the company w/ Scala experience, and I needed to touch a Scala service as a fairly green developer. I asked my boss for help, and was denied. I later found out that my boss had recommended against hiring me during my…

I'm sorry to hear about that situation. Having said that, I am possibly a bit like your boss. I am a major bottleneck to my employees, and they struggle to overcome technical skill gaps between their knowledge and what they need to work on. Frequently I find they are blocked for days or weeks and when I finally get to sit down or spend time with them, their problem is sometimes solved within minutes. Sometimes I rese…

I'm wondering if it would help to align incentives and motivations. I feel like right now it's possible your team members are not motivated to solve these problems. It seems like it might even be fine to be blocked for days or weeks. Not fine to you of course, but there doesn't seem to be a feedback loop right now. Note, I'm making assumptions here based on what you said.

What I like to do is to find the win-win for both me and my team members. If there's no reason for them to do better, why should they? Maybe you can get an understanding of what motivates them. Is it improving as an engineer? Better compensation? Getting promoted? I would imagine all of these are fairly easy to align with a goal of decreasing blocked time from weeks to hours. That's a huge difference in time!