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How can you tell if someone is lying?

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Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#291

Post by lawtalkinghuman »

leetcrew wrote: post #225
laurieg wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm definitely not a lawyer, but I believe that the court may draw an inference from your silence. You are innocent and decided to remain silent only to have a perfect explanation that fits will all evidence known to the police weeks later. Why didn't you offer this earlier? There is an interesting TV show called 24 Hours in Police Custody[1] that follows people in the 24 hours after they are arrested. Naturally, the…

> I'm definitely not a lawyer, but I believe that the court may draw an inference from your silence. You are innocent and decided to remain silent only to have a perfect explanation that fits will all evidence known to the police weeks later. Why didn't you offer this earlier? this is my understanding of the UK system too (note: I am an american). it's quite different in the US because, among other things, the jury i…

The negative inference comes from the fact that you can't push an affirmative defence at trial that you haven't hinted at during questioning.

So, if you are arrested for beating up X, and you invoke your right to silence, THEN at trial you put forward a defence of "I wasn't there!" without any substantive evidence to back it up, the prosecutor can say "well, look, if there was an alibi, why didn't you tell the police about it?" The judge is supposed to then instruct the jury that they can draw an inference as to your honesty on the grounds you didn't bring it up during police interview.

The legislation that brings that into force are ss34-39 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/33/part/III/crossh...

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#292

Post by simonh »

wildermuthn wrote: post #282

A lie-detector that works is a trillion-dollar business. A great sci-fi novel that explores the implications of an accurate lie-detector is "The Truth Machine". I've given a lot of thought to this topic over the years, and have concluded that the way to tackle this problem is indirectly. The problem with "truth" is that it is subjective. There is a better metric to judge: "false-confidence". There is a subtle but dis…

A lie is a mismatch between what I believe and what I say. It has nothing to do with objective truth.

We sometimes talk about lying versus telling the truth, but this is a shorthand. What we mean by telling the truth is saying what we believe to be true. No reasonable person would say that someone is lying if they say what they believe to be true, but it turns out they are mistaken.

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#293

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

colejohnson66 wrote: post #24
airstrike wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC their 95% failure includes failing to spot explosives and the like in their scanners

Here’s a nice article about their internal tests that failed 95% of the time: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/tsa-fails-95-percent-tests-ho... > In one test an undercover agent was stopped after setting off an alarm at a magnetometer, but TSA screeners failed to detect a fake explosive device that was taped to his back during a follow-on pat down. That doesn’t inspire much confidence.

> That doesn’t inspire much confidence.

It does example how superfluous the TSA is.

The 9/11 commission's recommendations never included anything like the TSA - just better comm between the 3-letters and reinforced cockpit doors.

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#295

Post by wildermuthn »

simonh wrote: post #292
wildermuthn wrote: post #282

A lie-detector that works is a trillion-dollar business. A great sci-fi novel that explores the implications of an accurate lie-detector is "The Truth Machine". I've given a lot of thought to this topic over the years, and have concluded that the way to tackle this problem is indirectly. The problem with "truth" is that it is subjective. There is a better metric to judge: "false-confidence". There is a subtle but dis…

A lie is a mismatch between what I believe and what I say. It has nothing to do with objective truth. We sometimes talk about lying versus telling the truth, but this is a shorthand. What we mean by telling the truth is saying what we believe to be true. No reasonable person would say that someone is lying if they say what they believe to be true, but it turns out they are mistaken.

Actually, this happens all the time. Especially in business and relationships. Most of the time we don't know what is objectively true. When there is a disagreement about what is objectively true, we often accuse or judge one another as being liars. What you are saying makes rational sense, but in practice human beings get mixed up about objective vs. subjective truth-telling. Using the term "false-confidence" cuts through the gordian knot by decoupling objective truth from subjective truth. It also recognizes that deception is not a boolean measurement (a lie vs. a truth), but is rather a percentage (somewhat of a lie, somewhat of a truth).

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#296

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

arbitrage wrote: post #192
withinboredom wrote: post #22

I find it interesting that the TSA uses these behaviors but their own army’s interrogation school[1] tells their students not to use them. 1. FM 2-22.3 (section 9-6)

The TSA is security theater. They don't accomplish anything statistically significant. The TSA is designed to make citizens of the United States feel better about their absurdly outsized risk of dying in a plane highjacking compared to literally every other civilised country on the planet. Also, it's a huge cash-funnel for the plutocracy. Some people make an enormous amount of money selling this lie.

filed under: Things so true they're nearly physics.

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#297

Post by simonh »

sriku wrote: post #123

"As a Homeland Security official told congressional investigators, “common sense” behavioral indicators are worth including in a “rational and defensible security program” even if they don’t meet academic standards of scientific evidence." What does that even mean? ... like there is a separate standard of evidence and there is a "we can get by without evidence" standard of evidence?

I can't be certain what they meant, but security agents and police will often find themselves in a situation where they need to decide how to devote investigative resources in situations where they have limited information. The information they do have might depend on their assessment of the veracity of what they are being told. In that case they may well have only their judgement to go on. I think that's reasonable, what else are they going to do?

What we need to be careful of is making judgements about innocence or guilt based on subjective opinion.

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#298

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

dathinab wrote: post #58

Yup, many of the "signs someone is lying". Are actually signs someone is uncomfortable/insecure. And while you might be such because you lie, you might also be such without lying and you might not be such when lying.

> Yup, many of the "signs someone is lying". Are actually signs someone is uncomfortable/insecure.

Which might be why LEO are so partial to them. The power to ruin vulnerable people is irresistible to some folks.

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#299

Post by simonh »

wildermuthn wrote: post #295
simonh wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lie is a mismatch between what I believe and what I say. It has nothing to do with objective truth. We sometimes talk about lying versus telling the truth, but this is a shorthand. What we mean by telling the truth is saying what we believe to be true. No reasonable person would say that someone is lying if they say what they believe to be true, but it turns out they are mistaken.

Actually, this happens all the time. Especially in business and relationships. Most of the time we don't know what is objectively true. When there is a disagreement about what is objectively true, we often accuse or judge one another as being liars. What you are saying makes rational sense, but in practice human beings get mixed up about objective vs. subjective truth-telling. Using the term "false-confidence" cuts t…

I don't think calling it something else is going to remove people's personal stake in the behaviour. When I said reasonable person, I meant an objective observer. People with ulterior motives and something to gain will tend to prevaricate if it's in their interests to do so whatever terminology we use.

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#300

Post by hutrdvnj »

arbitrage wrote: post #194
hutrdvnj wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but these claims do not survive a scientific review.

I prefer to trust the science. Haven't seen a review about this specific article we are discussing yet.

Would be interesting though if we had a scientific way to tell if someone is lying. Would make life easier for courts.
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