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How can you tell if someone is lying?

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Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#281

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

johnsmith4739 wrote: post #257

>> Psychologists have long known how hard it is to spot a liar. Absolutely this. Lying is a loose concept. Is it lying if I believe it is true? Is it lying if it's just an omission of truth? You can spot nervousness, you can spot defiance. I work in a field where people deceive almost 80% of the time, and less than 1 in 10 where caught. The way we approach this is by flanking. Using falsifiable questions the subject…

> Lying is a loose concept. Is it lying if I believe it is true? Is it lying if it's just an omission of truth?

I think what underlies this discussion are assumptions that lying is, by default, unethical and that we can trust truth-telling to be beneficial. I have found that neither of these things are factual.

Truths can be devastatingly harmful with no discernible benefit. I have found this outcome more likely when one assumes truth is a moral high-ground, while disregarding the well being of the person on the receiving end.

This led me to conclude that honesty is a poor goal, in and of itself. It is at best a tool, that often requires consideration and compassion to yield a positive outcome.

Much of the same can be said for lying. It isn't the opposite of truthing so much as it is a different tool. Wielded like a blunt weapon, it's harms are legendary. Used with precision, with empathy and with wise consideration of larger outcomes - lying can be used to smooth over small rough spots and avoid large disasters.

In short, it isn't uncommon for lying to be the most ethical of our choices.

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#282

Post by wildermuthn »

A lie-detector that works is a trillion-dollar business. A great sci-fi novel that explores the implications of an accurate lie-detector is "The Truth Machine".

I've given a lot of thought to this topic over the years, and have concluded that the way to tackle this problem is indirectly. The problem with "truth" is that it is subjective. There is a better metric to judge: "false-confidence". There is a subtle but distinct difference between a lie and false-confidence. A lie is subjective, being a mismatch between what I believe and what is true. But false-confidence is objective, in that what I believe (regardless of the truth of what I believe) may not match what I assert. We can never know, objectively, if a person is speaking the truth. But we can know, objectively, if a person is speaking with false-confidence.

This might seem like semantics, but focusing on "false-confidence" rather than "truth" is quite helpful in highlighting the real problem that is being solved: communication.

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#283

Post by asdff »

airstrike wrote: post #18
themgt wrote: post #12

This was good, and I mostly agree that using verbal strategies that amount to digging into/reviewing the details of what a person is claiming is the best way to detect liars. The TSA thing at the end seems like a bit of a derail though: But, Mann says, without knowing how many would-be terrorists slipped through security undetected, the success of such a program cannot be measured. And, in fact, in 2015 the acting he…

IIRC their 95% failure includes failing to spot explosives and the like in their scanners

I’ve seen TSA open a bag because they see something on the scanner, see the bag is too much of a mess, and close the back up seconds later and hand it back off to the passenger without investigating at all.

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#284

Post by lazide »

wildermuthn wrote: post #282

A lie-detector that works is a trillion-dollar business. A great sci-fi novel that explores the implications of an accurate lie-detector is "The Truth Machine". I've given a lot of thought to this topic over the years, and have concluded that the way to tackle this problem is indirectly. The problem with "truth" is that it is subjective. There is a better metric to judge: "false-confidence". There is a subtle but dis…

That doesn’t seem like the real problem being solved or highlighted? Communication is a vector here that is surfacing a fundamental competitive force and strategy between actors?

Information is power. Knowing something, and that being representative of reality and providing predictive ability related to that thing provides you power in a number of ways (ability to predict and intervene or not depending on desired outcomes being a huge one).

Someone presenting you plausibly correct, yet misleading information (a good lie) provides them a major advantage (short term, or long term depending on the situation). It allows them to influence your behavior and actions in a way they can likely predict and influence your ability to predict or react accurately to something.

A lie detector (as compared to an objective truth detector) would tell you if you were being manipulated or mislead intentionally. Very different from a ‘do they actually know what they are talking about’ aka truth detector like you are referring to, but a very valuable tool if one existed in a competitive world like the one we exist in.

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#285

Post by pessimizer »

saberdancer wrote: post #155
themgt wrote: post #12

This was good, and I mostly agree that using verbal strategies that amount to digging into/reviewing the details of what a person is claiming is the best way to detect liars. The TSA thing at the end seems like a bit of a derail though: But, Mann says, without knowing how many would-be terrorists slipped through security undetected, the success of such a program cannot be measured. And, in fact, in 2015 the acting he…

It's likely they want to use "behavioral detection" to be able to arbitrarily choose and pick who to examine. Who can say that the person they are examining did not fidget or look to the side. This allows them to easily deflect potential racial screening complaints.

It's like the "smell of marijuana" for cops. I'm convinced that the reason (right-wing) law enforcement is against pot legalization is because it removes this excuse, along with "the dog alerted" for arbitrary searches.

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#287

Post by wildermuthn »

lazide wrote: post #284
wildermuthn wrote: post #282

A lie-detector that works is a trillion-dollar business. A great sci-fi novel that explores the implications of an accurate lie-detector is "The Truth Machine". I've given a lot of thought to this topic over the years, and have concluded that the way to tackle this problem is indirectly. The problem with "truth" is that it is subjective. There is a better metric to judge: "false-confidence". There is a subtle but dis…

That doesn’t seem like the real problem being solved or highlighted? Communication is a vector here that is surfacing a fundamental competitive force and strategy between actors? Information is power. Knowing something, and that being representative of reality and providing predictive ability related to that thing provides you power in a number of ways (ability to predict and intervene or not depending on desired out…

I think we're saying the same thing. People manipulate one another through communication, not only in a criminal-justice setting, but also in business and relationships. Using "false-confidence" as a metric is simply reminding us that deception has no connection with objective truth. You can lie even while communicating something that is objectively true. You can also lie while intentionally displaying outrageously high false-confidence (i.e., jokes). It is easier to reason about this topic if we choose the right name.

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#288

Post by lawtalkinghuman »

MrDrDr wrote: post #152
sillysaurusx wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to watch this in full before gambling on that: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE In summary, you lose the moment you agree to talk.

Thank you for posting - I found this video fascinating. Made me think about the law in the UK. Interestingly when arrested here we are told : “You do not have to say anything. But, it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence.” I’d be interested if anyone has experience of the UK system and if the same strategy…

Refusing to cooperate or exercising one's right to silence is absolutely NOT the best strategy in the UK. Whether you should or not will depend heavily on a variety of factors. If you plan to offer an affirmative defence at trial, you can't just spring it on prosecutors.

In addition, England (dunno about Scotland) does NOT have the "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine regarding illegally or improperly collected evidence as is seen in a lot of US legal dramas.

The best strategy if arrested in England is to seek legal advice, either from your own solicitor or from the duty solicitor.

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#289

Post by User23 »

Spooky23 wrote: post #227
tarsinge wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Countless times when I was a kid (and sometimes now) people thought I lied when I was innocent because of timidity (and not diagnosed but maybe on the spectrum), so yeah I was unsettled. Uncontrollable smiles were the worst ("that makes you laugh!"). I can’t blame neurotypical people for having heuristics, but I’m still afraid to be interrogated in something serious with my reactions analyzed.

You get better with practice. I had a time where a group of bullies picked up the innovation of using the school administration to harass. So I found myself in the situation of having chats with the principal a few times a week. The optimal strategy was to courteously deny and be silent. It works over half the time. I’d also use my time waiting around to “charm” the support staff by being nice to them and making myse…

My high school was a similar object lesson in how the world actually works. I went from almost getting expelled freshman year for "breaking the library computer"[1] to having the assistant principal accept, but probably not believe, every word I said over underclassmen in any sort of conflict.

[1]

  10 PRINT "C:\> "
  20 READ
  30 PRINT "Bad command or file name"
  40 GOTO 10

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#290

Post by runawaybottle »

bluecalm wrote: post #154
runawaybottle wrote: post #74

Best liar ever if you want to see how good some people’s poker face can be: Prison escapee convinces cop he is actually a jogger: https://youtu.be/vBrnBmUmVzI Liars of this type probably have been practicing in real situations where their lies got them something. I think most of us (non nefarious people) don’t have to deal with lies of real significance. I’ve lied at stand-up, and I’m sure people know it. It’s a poli…

The guy isn't dressed like a jogger. Joggers don't usually carry bottles of water either. That's some actual evidence he is unlikely to be a jogger. Instead the policeman is focusing on what the person say.

It’s not the first time he escaped. Here’s his track record:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lee_McNair

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