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Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

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Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#121
post #75

My suggestion, especially to those who strongly advocate such surveillance, is that those who support or implement it should be under an even greater measure of surveillance. A live feed of their activities 24/7 is necessary due to their participation and effecting in a tentative, unprecedented surveillance state where the watched would be extremely foolish not to keep an unblinking eye on the watchers, who bear the…

This is all fine, but those who ultimately own wealth and power will pull all the strings. At crucial moments the cameras watching the watchers will malfunction.

Those with wealth and power will never be on cctv camera, only their minions will be.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#122
post #83

Many blue collar workers are recorded all day long. In fact, it’d be tough finding a brick-and-mortar store that doesn’t have recording devices all over. Why is this news? Because it’s in a truck? Because it’s using AI?

Because it's Amazon it feeds the "Amazon mistreats its workers" narrative.

Which is not necessarily untrue.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#123
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much this. You (op) cannot tell me with a straight face that if Amazon catches wind that drivers are considering unionizing they won't accidentally set their AI to flag any conversation recorded that mentions the word union for further review. Recording your drivers 24/7 with a camera/mic is a step too far. If you want to have a "black box recorder" that's simply recording the telemetry of the vehicle itself, that…

Anyone discussing unionisation on company property or systems is probably not as cautious as they should be.

But they have the right to do so. Blaming people for being uncautious makes no sense when there's no reason they should have to be.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#124
post #84

The drivers are necessary only until driverless vans are here (relatively soon). Drivers, being near the head of the line of people to be displaced, have little bargaining power.

So a driverless delivery vehichle arrives at the destination. Now what? How does the package get from the van to the destination? Some sort of Boston Dynamics robot jumps out with the package(s) to navigate curbs, walkways, steps/stairs/elevators?

The actual driving of the delivery van is but a part of the delivery person's job functions.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#125
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need a follow up book, 2084. Maybe the vid screens are permanently strapped to your face and actively monitor you and act as an intermediary between you and your environment in order to prevent any anti party information from getting in.

2048 would be a better title.

...not if you're trying to get people to think of 1984.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#126
post #34
post #26

What is the difference between this and having cctv in a factory building? Companies impose more work control over more people. If a company makes good use of it then it becomes a regular practice. If not then employees select another employer. We are lucky that we work in a creative field, most occupancies require just good, repetitive work. There should be a legal framework to destroy archive recordings, liability…

Because Amazon + cameras + AI + sensationalism = clicks? To me, the idea of an algorithm which detects when a driver is at increased risk (e.g. drowsy, or not wearing a seatbelt, or maybe using a phone inappropriately) seems like a fundamentally good move. And makes basic sense in any vehicle still piloted by a human. The issue is that (of course) people being watched by a camera opens the potential of misuse, and so…

> To me, the idea of an algorithm which detects when a driver is at increased risk (e.g. drowsy, or not wearing a seatbelt, or maybe using a phone inappropriately) seems like a fundamentally good move. And makes basic sense in any vehicle still piloted by a human.

I have a counter proposal. How about instead of trying to micromanage employees, companies raise the hiring bar?

If you don't want people working for you who break the rules, pay them well, and create a culture of inclusion and safety. I hear exactly the same complaints from friends involved in manufacturing where employees are constantly doing drugs on shift, showing up late, and abusing the system. Well what the heck did you expect? You pay them $10-15 per hour and treat them like they are replaceable robots rather than people. Of course they are going to screw you over.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#127
post #26

What is the difference between this and having cctv in a factory building? Companies impose more work control over more people. If a company makes good use of it then it becomes a regular practice. If not then employees select another employer. We are lucky that we work in a creative field, most occupancies require just good, repetitive work. There should be a legal framework to destroy archive recordings, liability…

Rather than a difference, I can mention a similarity (at least for my region: EU) between CCTV constantly watching employees work and this system constantly watching employees work:

They're both illegal.

You can have cameras film employees, for example when they take things out of a safe. Or if there has been theft and you monitor the area where this took place. There has to be a purpose, you can't simply film people do their work as a blanket measure all day long, that's invasive, unethical with the ethics I was brought up with, and illegal in any country where the GDPR applies and perhaps also the European Convention on Human Rights since this might be based on article 8 (privacy) (fun fact: Russia signed the ECHR, though I rather doubt they'd care if they were actually sued in the ECHR). It's similar on public roads: you can't simply film anyone who dares to walk over a sidewalk or drive over a road near you. But you can if there have recently been cars set on fire and there is a direct reason to film your car that is parked on the street. There just has to be a reason that trumps the right to go about your own damn business without constantly being watched.

Amazon honestly might have a case if it truly improves safety by a lot, or if they employ this for particular drivers in some higher risk class perhaps. But it's also invasive, so they have to have a good reason and apply the least-invasive measure that achieves the same effect.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#128
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a recording to examine when investigating an incident is different than an AI analyzes all video feeds in real time. The latter is more like each camera having a security team watching it 24/7. That may be common in some high risk environments (e.g. gambling or other large cash situations) but it’s certainly not the norm in vanilla retail. Truck drivers have historically been independent, in both corporate str…

It's not the norm in driving either, but expect both to be on the upswing. AI to analyze retail feeds has been productized by a number of companies over the last few years. Right now they mainly do customer data collection, but monitoring employees is trivial.

it's been productized for employee theft as well when tied into register systems. Most checkouts probably have that (or many do). Register doesn't balance, find clip of employee taking the $20, train model a bit better for next time. Find some scan fraud - train model off those clips etc.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#129
post #55

Maybe it's just that I live in Australia, a country that has very strict road safety laws and practices, which are generally supported by the community, given that our road fatality figures are now very low (in 2019 we had just under 1200 road deaths in a nation of 25.3M people - a low rate by world standards, particularly given how much we drive here). But I just don't see the cause for outrage over this - as long a…

I think the fear and the expectation (based on extensive previous experience) is that this technology, regardless of it's stated purpose, will be used to eke out a few extra seconds of efficiency from human drivers. Which will likely lead to stress and extra fatigue. In my book, automating boring and repetitive tasks is good even if it leads to some job losses. Turning humans into robots by optimizing for every bit o…

Corey Doctorow writes about the "turning humans into robots", or more specifically systems that "the machine uses the human for support" and describes them as "Reverse Centaurs":

https://pluralistic.net/2021/02/17/reverse-centaur/#reverse-...

> Emmanuel Kant's "Formula of Humanity" told us that "treating people as means" was a violation of the supreme principal of morality – humans should be served automation, not harnessed to it.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#130
post #63

Maybe it's just that I live in Australia, a country that has very strict road safety laws and practices, which are generally supported by the community, given that our road fatality figures are now very low (in 2019 we had just under 1200 road deaths in a nation of 25.3M people - a low rate by world standards, particularly given how much we drive here). But I just don't see the cause for outrage over this - as long a…

I don't think it's really about the AI at all. The article mentioned a live feed which the AI activates so that your can be berated by a real-live person. From personal experience, I feel like that's what the quitting is truly about. I have quit a job before over surveillance cameras but that was back in 1980's, long before AI. The work environment there was oppressive, and not just due to the surveillance cameras. T…

I'm not sure we read the same article. The linked article said two things:

> 'The system then uses "automated verbal alerts" to tell drivers if a violation has been detected.'

'Automated verbal alert' is the exact opposite of a real-live person.

The article further says:

> 'Amazon told Insider in February driver footage was not automatically available to Amazon and that the "live feed" was triggered only after the detection of a safety or policy violation.'

So where are you getting 'berated by a real-live person?'

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