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Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

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Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#111

Post by z77dj3kl »

tomhoward wrote: post #29

Maybe it's just that I live in Australia, a country that has very strict road safety laws and practices, which are generally supported by the community, given that our road fatality figures are now very low (in 2019 we had just under 1200 road deaths in a nation of 25.3M people - a low rate by world standards, particularly given how much we drive here). But I just don't see the cause for outrage over this - as long a…

> ... Australia ... has very strict road safety laws and practices, which are generally supported by the community

I think this is it. Australians are okay with just about any kind of big-brother surveillance or nanny-stateism as long as it's sold to them with a good story.

Australian roads are on par with other wealthy Western nations (US is an outlier), and Oz has an advantage of not having snow/ice and related hazards. The cops there are largely harassing people and raising money, it's not driven by an aim to reduce harm or protect drivers.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#112

Post by developer92 »

tomhoward wrote: post #29

Maybe it's just that I live in Australia, a country that has very strict road safety laws and practices, which are generally supported by the community, given that our road fatality figures are now very low (in 2019 we had just under 1200 road deaths in a nation of 25.3M people - a low rate by world standards, particularly given how much we drive here). But I just don't see the cause for outrage over this - as long a…

Being constantly watched has negative psychological effects, check the old work on "panopticon" prisons.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#113

Post by tomhoward »

Arainach wrote: post #108
tomhoward wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They could have calculated that productivity increases due to the nanny cam were worth any blowback from unhappy workers and regulators That makes no sense. Deeply/continually unhappy workers are less productive, especially if they leave. And action from regulators is bad for productivity, especially when laws are enforced via court action/penalties or when new laws imposed. This line of commentary is just-so narra…

Amazon measures all of the numbers and fires its "less productive" workers. There's a never ending supply of desperately poor people, so they have a constant stream of people to work as fast as physically possible until they burn out. This is baked into their entire philosophy - it applies to warehouse workers, drivers, and software engineers.

"There's a never ending supply of desperately poor people"

There is such a thing as government-mandated conditions in most places even in the US (I'm not from the US but I'm not that stupid), and even if not, at a certain point people are better off doing nothing than being so badly abused, and there is always a better option below a certain level of mistreatment.

This commentary is just-so narrative, not serious discussion.

I'm bouncing out for some sleep, thanks.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#114

Post by developer92 »

navbaker wrote: post #109
tomhoward wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They could have calculated that productivity increases due to the nanny cam were worth any blowback from unhappy workers and regulators That makes no sense. Deeply/continually unhappy workers are less productive, especially if they leave. And action from regulators is bad for productivity, especially when laws are enforced via court action/penalties or when new laws imposed. This line of commentary is just-so narra…

I would guess, admittedly with no evidence, that for this particular job, Amazon does not have to worry about posting high numbers for retention. It’s a job without a ton of skill barriers to entry, so they don’t have to be deeply concerned about worker happiness.

I would second this: look at how they treat their engineers Vs their warehouse staff

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#115

Post by drefanzor »

It would also probably invade their privacy in other ways, especially if they are not given enough time to use the restroom. It appears drivers have been defecating and urinating while on the move, in their delivery trucks. Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez even got into a Twitter feud with the verified Amazon News account over the ordeal, and posted a screenshot of an email complaining about "poop" coming back in returns; they were using the boxes or return envelopes to defecate in.

ref: https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1375502593863073792?s=20

A solution would be to somehow implement bigger cabs with the ability to quickly "go" when you need. Another solution would be to give drivers a break when they need and ease up the pressure.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#117

Post by developer92 »

tw04 wrote: post #101
pavel_lishin wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as long as the system really is focused on the safety of drivers and other road users. That's the problem; nobody (rightfully) trusts Amazon to only have everyone's best interests at heart, or to not abuse this system. Because they have in the past, and they will in the future.

So much this. You (op) cannot tell me with a straight face that if Amazon catches wind that drivers are considering unionizing they won't accidentally set their AI to flag any conversation recorded that mentions the word union for further review. Recording your drivers 24/7 with a camera/mic is a step too far. If you want to have a "black box recorder" that's simply recording the telemetry of the vehicle itself, that…

Anyone discussing unionisation on company property or systems is probably not as cautious as they should be.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#118

Post by developer92 »

mft_ wrote: post #34
agsamek wrote: post #26

What is the difference between this and having cctv in a factory building? Companies impose more work control over more people. If a company makes good use of it then it becomes a regular practice. If not then employees select another employer. We are lucky that we work in a creative field, most occupancies require just good, repetitive work. There should be a legal framework to destroy archive recordings, liability…

Because Amazon + cameras + AI + sensationalism = clicks? To me, the idea of an algorithm which detects when a driver is at increased risk (e.g. drowsy, or not wearing a seatbelt, or maybe using a phone inappropriately) seems like a fundamentally good move. And makes basic sense in any vehicle still piloted by a human. The issue is that (of course) people being watched by a camera opens the potential of misuse, and so…

The trouble with waiting to see is that once you've discovered that it is being abused, the system is already in place and hard to remove. Additionally, it's a kind of frog boiling situation where the more such systems you have the more acceptable further such systems and abuses are both in the comment and socially.

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#119

Post by alacombe »

mft_ wrote: post #67
EarlKing wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're going to be perfectly OK with people monitoring your vehicle 24/7 for how much you actually use the public roads, right? Because that won't be abused either. And that, by the way, is a perennial suggestion that got floated again recently. How about setting aside whether this is useful and consider that maybe it's blatantly anti-labor? They can already monitor who's wearing a seatbelt or not with vehicle tel…

> So you're going to be perfectly OK with people monitoring your vehicle 24/7 for how much you actually use the public roads, right? Because that won't be abused either. And that, by the way, is a perennial suggestion that got floated again recently. Well, I'm not sure that that's got anything to do with this particular issue, but since you asked... I think payment of road tax according to road usage is eminently sen…

> I think payment of road tax according to road usage is eminently sensible

That's what fuel taxes were for

Re: Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

#120

Post by tomhoward »

z77dj3kl wrote: post #111
tomhoward wrote: post #29

Maybe it's just that I live in Australia, a country that has very strict road safety laws and practices, which are generally supported by the community, given that our road fatality figures are now very low (in 2019 we had just under 1200 road deaths in a nation of 25.3M people - a low rate by world standards, particularly given how much we drive here). But I just don't see the cause for outrage over this - as long a…

> ... Australia ... has very strict road safety laws and practices, which are generally supported by the community I think this is it. Australians are okay with just about any kind of big-brother surveillance or nanny-stateism as long as it's sold to them with a good story. Australian roads are on par with other wealthy Western nations (US is an outlier), and Oz has an advantage of not having snow/ice and related haz…

> it's not driven by an aim to reduce harm or protect drivers

Yeah, this is false. Australians like living in a place that has safe roads, and support governments that keep things that way. It makes for well-functioning health system and a harmonious society.

I agree that Australia can be too nanny-statist; that's a separate matter. But it's not true that authorities don't care about reducing harm to people. Governments/authority figures who aren't serious and sincere about this topic don't stay in office very long.

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