How can you tell if someone is lying? • Hacker News Board

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#221

Post by Robin_Message » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 1:58 PM UTC

nosianu wrote: post #169

frereubu wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leave aside the art metaphor if that's not to your taste, and perhaps a less metaphorical way of looking at it is that Gladwell is a storyteller, not a scientist. He creates coherent narratives, but they obey the logic of stories, not science. Other people have written detailed criticisms of his scientific writing - if you want to read them they're pretty easy to find. I genuinely think it's worth your time. I listen…

Thank you for making my point. Your comment is as vague and nebulous as you say Gladwell's stories are. Neither does he claim to publish scientific papers, last time I checked those were "popular science" category books like millions of others. I'm not sure what value there is in singling out one guy, or to point out the gigantic discrepancy between a scientific paper and a popular book, especially when it's done wor…

Sorry to have scared you. I don't think pointing out the scientific illiteracy and anti-knowledge in his books is far worse than the books themselves, but YMMV.

I commented on a relevant thread in the hope of saving someone else the time wasted reading them, and if I'm honest, because I'm still salty about the money and time he stole from me.

I criticise it in the same wa as if someone was expounding homeopathy or a fruit-baswd diet for cancer, or horoscope-based hiring.

JavaScript is fine by me.

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#222

Post by michael_vo » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 2:02 PM UTC

This seems to be one specific category of lying detection (new training data with no prior training).

This article doesn't seem to discuss machine learning techniques. For example what if we could have someone talk about "nothing" for x hours for a training set, then interrogate them. That's essentially what lie detection machines do when they ask a series of baseline questions. But heart rate is the only input feature they use. We could use word frequency, spoken word speed, sentence patterns, and all the rich feature sets of ML.

For those who have watched the popularity of deception games like Among Us, Secret Hitler, Werewolf, etc, there are verbal and non-verbal cues we all use. And playing with the same players iteratively yields a lot of meta sussing. For example: "You sound guilty because you're usually calm when you're guilty and accused of being imposter. Right now you're excitedly defending yourself"

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#223

Post by superasn » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 2:10 PM UTC

sloshnmosh wrote: post #196

This is just silly pseudoscience, new-age BS if you ask me. The only scientifically proven way of knowing if someone is a liar is to examine the shape and bumps of their skull.

And the rabbit hole only goes deeper!

"Craniometrists virtually without exception dismissed Phrenology as crackpot science while promulgating an alternative nonsense of their own. Craniometry focused on more precise and comprehensive measurements of volume, shape, and structure of the head and brain but in pursuit, it must be said, of equally preposterous conclusions. (Bill Bryson)"

It's so funny how these pseudosciences diss each other and think the other one is nonsense :)

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#224

Post by m463 » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 2:10 PM UTC

sloshnmosh wrote: post #196

This is just silly pseudoscience, new-age BS if you ask me. The only scientifically proven way of knowing if someone is a liar is to examine the shape and bumps of their skull.

Well, or if they have neatly trimmed facial hair or wear dark clothing.

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#225

Post by leetcrew » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 2:12 PM UTC

laurieg wrote: post #161

MrDrDr wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for posting - I found this video fascinating. Made me think about the law in the UK. Interestingly when arrested here we are told : “You do not have to say anything. But, it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence.” I’d be interested if anyone has experience of the UK system and if the same strategy…

I'm definitely not a lawyer, but I believe that the court may draw an inference from your silence. You are innocent and decided to remain silent only to have a perfect explanation that fits will all evidence known to the police weeks later. Why didn't you offer this earlier? There is an interesting TV show called 24 Hours in Police Custody[1] that follows people in the 24 hours after they are arrested. Naturally, the…

> I'm definitely not a lawyer, but I believe that the court may draw an inference from your silence. You are innocent and decided to remain silent only to have a perfect explanation that fits will all evidence known to the police weeks later. Why didn't you offer this earlier?

this is my understanding of the UK system too (note: I am an american). it's quite different in the US because, among other things, the jury is explicitly instructed not infer anything from the defendant's use of their 5th amendment protection against self-incrimination. even if you have a perfect explanation for what happened, it's often best to just be quiet and let the prosecution fall apart.

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#226

Post by hellbannedguy » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 2:16 PM UTC

jonathanstrange wrote: post #146

foobiekr wrote: post #65

David Simon's book, Homicide, has an apropos section: """Terry McLarney once mused that the best way to unsettle a suspect would be to post in all three interrogation rooms a written list of those behavior patterns that indicate deception: Uncooperative. Too cooperative. Talks too much. Talks too little. Gets his story perfectly straight. Fucks his story up. Blinks too much, avoids eye contact. Doesn’t blink. Stares.…

Luckily, there is this one reliable method for detecting a lie, checking whether what the suspect says is true.

I think that might be the only way.

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#227

Post by Spooky23 » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

tarsinge wrote: post #118

foobiekr wrote: post #65

David Simon's book, Homicide, has an apropos section: """Terry McLarney once mused that the best way to unsettle a suspect would be to post in all three interrogation rooms a written list of those behavior patterns that indicate deception: Uncooperative. Too cooperative. Talks too much. Talks too little. Gets his story perfectly straight. Fucks his story up. Blinks too much, avoids eye contact. Doesn’t blink. Stares.…

Countless times when I was a kid (and sometimes now) people thought I lied when I was innocent because of timidity (and not diagnosed but maybe on the spectrum), so yeah I was unsettled. Uncontrollable smiles were the worst ("that makes you laugh!"). I can’t blame neurotypical people for having heuristics, but I’m still afraid to be interrogated in something serious with my reactions analyzed.

You get better with practice.

I had a time where a group of bullies picked up the innovation of using the school administration to harass. So I found myself in the situation of having chats with the principal a few times a week.

The optimal strategy was to courteously deny and be silent. It works over half the time. I’d also use my time waiting around to “charm” the support staff by being nice to them and making myself useful. Eventually, most disciplinary referrals ended up getting lost, as the secretaries clued up to what was happening.

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#228

Post by moron4hire » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 2:22 PM UTC

kaminar wrote: post #174

foobiekr wrote: post #65

David Simon's book, Homicide, has an apropos section: """Terry McLarney once mused that the best way to unsettle a suspect would be to post in all three interrogation rooms a written list of those behavior patterns that indicate deception: Uncooperative. Too cooperative. Talks too much. Talks too little. Gets his story perfectly straight. Fucks his story up. Blinks too much, avoids eye contact. Doesn’t blink. Stares.…

17 pantomimes...nuff said.

Is it? Is it really "nuff said"? Cuz I have no clue what you're talking about. From my perspective, a lot more needs to be said.

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#229

Post by carapace » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 2:24 PM UTC

wnoise wrote: post #142

carapace wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems there are verbal and physical cues when we lie. Yes. Not being able to detect lies is a social construction, part of culture. (And so the results reported in TFA are technically useless because everyone involved is operating as part of the unconscious "conspiracy" and so would naturally "discover" that it's hard to detect lies.) You can tap into this with hypnosis, but it's unpleasant, like being an alien.…

If we have to be taught not to recognize lies, then why is it so easy to lie to young children?

Seems kind of obvious, eh?

When they're really young their minds are not yet formed.

And children are biased to trust their parents and adults in general.

Re: How can you tell if someone is lying?

#230

Post by hellbannedguy » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 2:28 PM UTC

anon_tor_12345 wrote: post #48

judge2020 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.

To be precise: a lot of people (even on hn, especially on hn) are personally and practically invested in authoritarian practices being legitimate.

I’m kinda surprised. I felt this group was much more rebellious a few years ago. A lot of people might say it’s growing up, but I still don’t like it.

I look back on the people I admired, and they questioned authority.