Live data from Hacker News

The WHO-China search for the origins of the coronavirus

technologyreview.com

31–40 of 227 posts

Re: The WHO-China search for the origins of the coronavirus

#31

Yeah, sure go look for it more than a year later. That's how it works best. China and WHO spit in the face of the world. And world smiled back and greeted them.

The WHO is a horrible cobbled together mess of political interference and compromises.

The WHO is also a vital resource for developing nations which lack the technical infrastructure and know-how to do their own research or develop their own policies, and depend on support from the WHO to advise and provide resources to deal with medical crises. It's out there saving lives across the developing world every day.

Both of these things are true, but the reason the WHO is a political football is because the nation states it depends on for funding and resources keep kicking it about for their own political purposes. The WHO is the organisation our countries have built, organised the way we structured it, vulnerable to nation state interference so that our nations can interfere with them when we want to.

The only way to get the job the WHO are tasked with done properly is to stop kicking them about and actually support them in their efforts. Insist they be freed from nation state interference, stop blaming them for being kicked about, and go after the nation states interfering with and undermining them. That also means reforming the WHO itself and better resourcing it. We need to stop being part of the problem and start being part of the solution.

Re: The WHO-China search for the origins of the coronavirus

#32

It's interesting to see that with Donald Trump out of office, the "lab escape" hypothesis is not roundly dismissed as a right-wing conspiracy theory anymore.

Nobody ever dismissed it. It has been a viable theory since the beginning. What was dangerous was pointing the finger at China and saying “this is all their fault!” without any evidence. There STILL is not evidence, but that doesn’t mean it should not be investigated as a source. Dismissing the theory outright has never and will never be an option. I don’t like that this is what the team decided to do, and I suspect…

> Nobody ever dismissed it.

You must've missed out on previous HN discussions. I remember these guys in particular being paraded around:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBQplOe8-LE

I did find their tone quite dismissive, and the verdict in the title leaves little room for interpretation.

> What was dangerous was pointing the finger at China and saying “this is all their fault!” without any evidence.

True, but that's irrelevant to the plausibility of the hypothesis.

> There STILL is not evidence, but that doesn’t mean it should not be investigated as a source.

Arguably, it's still dangerous to do exactly that.

Re: The WHO-China search for the origins of the coronavirus

#34
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In hindsight, I'm not happy with the word "claim" either, but I don't want to edit the comment again. Let's go with "hypothesis" for the sake of argument: In this case, we have a basket of competing hypotheses, none of which have any solid evidence going for them. Yet, some of these hypotheses have not been dismissed as conspiracy theories. Those were the hypotheses that conveniently fit a "humans encroach on wildlif…

In the past, we have seen... So we have prior evidence...so we give more weight... The investigators should examine all possibilities, of course. Repeating the most “exciting” theory on Opinion News night after night...

We have prior evidence for both lab escapes and gain-of-function experiments on coronaviruses (in Wuhan, no less).

Assigning weights to these circumstances can be done arbitrarily, to the point where the lab escape hypothesis becomes the most plausible one:

https://www.rootclaim.com/analysis/What-is-the-source-of-COV...

Re: The WHO-China search for the origins of the coronavirus

#35

It's interesting to see that with Donald Trump out of office, the "lab escape" hypothesis is not roundly dismissed as a right-wing conspiracy theory anymore.

Nobody ever dismissed it. It has been a viable theory since the beginning. What was dangerous was pointing the finger at China and saying “this is all their fault!” without any evidence. There STILL is not evidence, but that doesn’t mean it should not be investigated as a source. Dismissing the theory outright has never and will never be an option. I don’t like that this is what the team decided to do, and I suspect…

> Nobody ever dismissed it

There was at least one paper calling it "natural selection", and some folks who read it agreed that it ruled out laboratory accidents:

"The high-affinity binding of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein to human ACE2 is most likely the result of natural selection on a human or human-like ACE2 that permits another optimal binding solution to arise. This is strong evidence that SARS-CoV-2 is not the product of purposeful manipulation."

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

https://twitter.com/ehundman/status/1246597925288816640

https://www.newsweek.com/claim-that-coronavirus-came-lab-chi...

Re: The WHO-China search for the origins of the coronavirus

#36

It's interesting to see that with Donald Trump out of office, the "lab escape" hypothesis is not roundly dismissed as a right-wing conspiracy theory anymore.

Nobody ever dismissed it. It has been a viable theory since the beginning. What was dangerous was pointing the finger at China and saying “this is all their fault!” without any evidence. There STILL is not evidence, but that doesn’t mean it should not be investigated as a source. Dismissing the theory outright has never and will never be an option. I don’t like that this is what the team decided to do, and I suspect…

They absolutely did. See this NYT article. Ben Thompson of Stratechery discussed it in an excellent article linked below. Key excerpt from the NYT piece. Doesn’t get more official than that:

> Hoaxes, lies and collective delusions aren’t new, but the extent to which millions of Americans have embraced them may be. Thirty percent of Republicans have a favorable view of QAnon, according to a recent YouGov poll. According to other polls, more than 70 percent of Republicans believe Mr. Trump legitimately won the election, and 40 percent of Americans — including plenty of Democrats — believe the baseless theory that COVID-19 was manufactured in a Chinese lab.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/02/technology/biden-reality-...

https://stratechery.com/2021/mistakes-memes-and-foreign-grou...

Re: The WHO-China search for the origins of the coronavirus

#37
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accidental lab escape, or premeditated lab escape? Edit: Because the former doesn't sound like much of a conspiracy, aside from a cover-up afterwards.

What’s odd is how infrequent it is for people to point out this distinction can never be known for sure. From there, the only safe bet is to act as if it were intentional. This is a controversial concept, but it is the rational choice. Never assume that someone who harms you is doing it accidentally. Even though it is more often than not the case, you still have to protect yourself with the possibility of malice in m…

I am going to transfer this to the individual:

Working with the default hypothesis of "everybody is out there to destroy me" is not only a sign of paranoia, but in most cases also wrong (because in reality not everything is about you and accidents happen).

So starting with the default hypothesis of malice has the serious downside that you will constantly feel threatened even if looking back there was no rational reason to feel threatened. This is not only incredibly exhausting, it also will lead to a "crying wolf"-type of problem, if the perceived threat rarely turns out to be one. And when something really dangerous is going to happen, you might not be able to react in a rational way (because all your previous reactions were irrational ones).

What I think is important to rationally tackle that question is also to factor in confidence. I will always assume innocence (just because it makes me a happier person), but that doesn't mean my confidence in the other person being innocent is always big. If there are signs that other person is acting in malice, my confidence that they are innocent will shrink. Once that confidence crosses a certain threshold I will assume malice. This can also happen within a split second, so I don't see how this would not be the rational way to do this. If you go get bread at the bakery, you wouldn't assume the baker wants to poison you per default right? So you would assume their innocence unless there are clear indicators they are a baker that poisons their customers. The other way around, if a man jumps out of a bush in a dark alley and comes at you with a knife, you wouldn't assume they are innocent, because there are really strong indicators they are not.

So what is irrational is to have incredible high confidence in either innocence or malice when in fact you are in a situation with lack of evidence to either direction. And this is the case in this situation.

Re: The WHO-China search for the origins of the coronavirus

#38

It's interesting to see that with Donald Trump out of office, the "lab escape" hypothesis is not roundly dismissed as a right-wing conspiracy theory anymore.

It's a credible theory I think, but it doesn't help that various conspiracy nuts have been fabricating fake evidence for it, exaggerating or misrepresenting facts and clouding it with a fog of crazy. I have no idea if the lab escape hypothesis is true, there's a reasonable chance that's what happened, but it's also true that the crackpot brigade is out on this one in force and that really isn't helping.

Re: The WHO-China search for the origins of the coronavirus

#39
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody ever dismissed it. It has been a viable theory since the beginning. What was dangerous was pointing the finger at China and saying “this is all their fault!” without any evidence. There STILL is not evidence, but that doesn’t mean it should not be investigated as a source. Dismissing the theory outright has never and will never be an option. I don’t like that this is what the team decided to do, and I suspect…

They absolutely did. See this NYT article. Ben Thompson of Stratechery discussed it in an excellent article linked below. Key excerpt from the NYT piece. Doesn’t get more official than that: > Hoaxes, lies and collective delusions aren’t new, but the extent to which millions of Americans have embraced them may be. Thirty percent of Republicans have a favorable view of QAnon, according to a recent YouGov poll. Accordi…

The NPR article that your NYT article links to is more direct about this; I'll link to it and quote it here directly: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/951095644

> The poll gave people a sort of test to see if they could spot misinformation like the coronavirus was created in a lab or that voter fraud helped Joe Biden win the 2020 election.

> 40% of poll respondents believe one of the biggest conspiracy theories that's out there about the virus, that it was made in a lab in China. There is no evidence for this. And scientists say that the virus was transmitted to humans from another species. But I talked to people all over the country who responded to our poll and they still believe this.

Re: The WHO-China search for the origins of the coronavirus

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody ever dismissed it. It has been a viable theory since the beginning. What was dangerous was pointing the finger at China and saying “this is all their fault!” without any evidence. There STILL is not evidence, but that doesn’t mean it should not be investigated as a source. Dismissing the theory outright has never and will never be an option. I don’t like that this is what the team decided to do, and I suspect…

> Nobody ever dismissed it There was at least one paper calling it "natural selection", and some folks who read it agreed that it ruled out laboratory accidents: "The high-affinity binding of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein to human ACE2 is most likely the result of natural selection on a human or human-like ACE2 that permits another optimal binding solution to arise. This is strong evidence that SARS-CoV-2 is not the p…

That is not addressing the same claim though. That was refuting the theory that people were spreading about it being genetically engineered to be infectious towards humans.
Post reply on HN