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EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

reuters.com

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Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#331
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I'll bite: > Is it really so hard to cooperate with or convince the nations involved who own the biggest deserts? In a word, yes. These are some of the most unstable countries in modern history. Then you also need to secure the cables going north from Africa. Take the Suez canal risk and multiply it with a factor of 100-1000x. Then we also have China currently being busy colonizing Africa...

> In a word, yes. These are some of the most unstable countries in modern history. Then you also need to secure the cables going north from Africa. They are indeed unstable - for reasons that may not be discussed - but buying the required sites and securing them should be possible anyways. If local jobs are created in the process, even better. So much effort has been wasted on partially securing much more dangerous c…

I think the you should spend your efforts on responding to other comments you got, at least two were quite strong, much stronger than mine.

I'll just reply to the China thing:

> Aren't the Chinese endavours mostly directed at farming and some mining for now?

No. A large part of their investments are focused is on building and owning ports and roads. This is essential for owning trade, which is how you get to own the governments of Africa.

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#332
post #180

Am I the only person who thinks we're just going to be sending nuclear waste into space/storing it on moons with SpaceX Starships/whatever comes next? Can somebody tell me why this won't be a viable option? Seems simple enough, and it's not like we've not done worse.

Sending waste to space is a very dumb idea. First, rockets explode quite often. Second, sending things to space is very expensive, much more than storing them in storage facility. Third, nuclear waste will be very valuable in the future, so forward thinking country wants to keep it.

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#333

Nuclear power seems incredibly expensive and complicated, even more so than large coal power plants. The logistics alone are crazy. Nuclear power's inherent radiation danger to living organisms and our shiny new 3nm GPUs is also real. Additionally uranium ore seems quite limited on earth and thus makes nuclear fission seem like a non-scaleable technology. Maybe this resource is better used to solve rare edge cases li…

The inherent radiation danger seems largely overblown to me. Chernobyl is the only accident that has caused any real human impact beyond psychological terror, and it was an unsafe design with zero safety features. It's design flaws were kept secret from the operators, and they were experimenting beyond operational parameters in a "hold my beer" fashion. It's like looking at Bhopal and saying that pesticide manufactur…

I grew up in Hanau and was born in that city one year before that happened (you may also refer to the sources if you don't trust the org publishing the English summary):

https://www.wiseinternational.org/nuclear-monitor/493-494/ex...

Children found funny metal pill or drop-like objects in the forests around the plant and played with it. While there were reports of inspectors and interested civilians being blocked from taking measurements.

After this and Chernobyl nobody has a right to complain about me being a retarded monkey... or dying maybe 1-5 years earlier than normal due to earlier onset of cancer.

Humans can not be trusted (at scale) to keep such material secure and even in labs accidents can happen. Same is true for large scale use of dangerous chemicals, too.

> Then if you use breeder reactors, there is so much Thorium on the planet that we can pretty much assume we will have solved fusion by the time we run out.

Are there breeder designs that do not involve molten, highly reactive metals?

> The inherent radiation danger seems largely overblown to me. Chernobyl is the only accident that has caused any real human impact beyond psychological terror, and it was an unsafe design with zero safety features. It's design flaws were kept secret from the operators, and they were experimenting beyond operational parameters in a "hold my beer" fashion. It's like looking at Bhopal and saying that pesticide manufacturing isn't worth it for humanity because its too dangerous.

Human operators can never be trusted. And machines built by humans will also fail, but at least risk could be more easily calculated. (Well, at least until machine learning came along and we started to introduce some "human factor" back into the algorithms for better or worse.) If we were able to avoid using most pesticides we would do so already. Unfortunately our way of producing food for the masses with low manual effort and low technology (large machines, monoculture) forces us to keep using them, for now. We will see what alternatives we can build (robotic farming, indoor farming and maybe a few organic farms) that can do with less or no pesticides. I don't think anyone questions the harm widespread pesticide use has done to our ecosystem. Pesticides are just like chemical weapons. What you really want is the bug not eating your plant, not multiplying in excess and staying mostly out of your bottom-line. Using pesticides is like waging a war against the bug species in question (with collateral damage) instead of finding ways to fix the root-causes. As someone who picked potatoe bugs from a field once, I can relate to the waging a war option, but that doesn't mean it's the right course of action.

> The other issue is that you need something for dispatchable and base load energy. Solar and Wind do not produce 24/7, and as a result their capacity factors are typically ~29% and ~40%. They can produce cheap electricity, but not on demand, and not 24/7. So this means you're now looking at creating giant battery banks to load shift by an hour or two to charge when there is excess production and prices are cheap. Oh yeah... these battery banks are nowhere near 100% efficient either, and currently require tons of lithium, which is getting very expensive.

True. I also don't see how lithium based batteries have a long future in large scale energy storage. Too high environmental impact and political risk. (Everyone designs battery cars and China controls most needed rare earths. How is that not a dependency.) I have high hopes in direct hydrogen storage. Efficieny is important, but not the single most important factor. Total cost (over lifetime) and environmental impact - also in countries where the raw materials are mined - should be considered.

> There is a good article here on the technical challenges: https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/total-losses-in-po...

This one states that "Transmission Losses is approximate 17% while distribution losses is approximate 50%.". So these 50% loss in the distribution part are shared by any other power generation except distributed local (on your own roof or in your basement). The 17% in the transmission area do not sound so much and are lower than I expected. I do however take from that article that baseload power generation should be as distributed as possible to avoid unnecessary losses in distribution (smaller power lines/transformers of the villages/buildings).

> Don't forget that deserts are part of Earths ecosystems too, and host a variety of wildlife that is also worthy of conservation.

This one is unfortunately true. Every idea has its merrits and downsides. I'd rather err on the biome uninhabitable by us humans, though.

> At the end of the day nuclear can produce an absolutely massive amount of energy with little land use and a high degree of safety with zero ongoing carbon emissions and a lower materials throughput than any other source. In my opinion we would be stupid to not use it.

Let us use this compact and efficient method for powering the ion engines to travel to some other planets, instead of using them here, with the risk of lowering our homeworld's value.

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dirty bombs aren't an issue. You might want to ask yourself why we've never seen one used, especially if you understand how easy it is to obtain the necessary materials. IIRC we've only caught a handful of devices (none exploded). Also we have to consider when it explodes, it just doesn't make enough radiation. It is pretty difficult to generate enough radiation that would actually cause an increase in cancer rates (…

Terrorists are not known to be the most logical people, to be honest. They are going to try anything that can generate terror in large scale and a dirty bomb is a very, very terrorizing thing to general population. General population thinks anything with radiation is panic worthy, even though there isn't that big of a deal.

> Terrorists are not known to be the most logical people, to be honest

Terrorists want blood and guts on national TV, not a statistical raise in cancer over 30 years.

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#335
post #326
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear is not an alternative. It has a lot of unwanted side effects and it just does not scale to solve the problem. It's extremely costly, comes with costly unsolved problems and is slow to build up.

Not shutting down plants is an alternative to instead slowing down phasing out coal, like Germany did. And almost all of the alternatives have costly problems too, like causing more deaths for most of them. Large scale solar might be less lethal, but pretty much every other power source causes more short term deaths. I'm not arguing against renewables. I'm arguing that this fear of nuclear costs huge numbers of lives…

> Not shutting down plants is an alternative to instead slowing down phasing out coal, like Germany did.

Germany accelerated the development of renewable energy. That was the goal. Nuclear had to go first. Coal is following. The Germany time scale to rebuild its electricity landscape goes over many decades.

By investing many many billions into renewables, instead of investing them into nuclear, Germany helped to kickstart the renewable energy industry, which will over a long period of time be much more successful replacing fossil fuels, than nuclear ever did or will do.

Just building a nuclear power plant here and there will not solve the CO2 problem. Scaling renewable to make it cheap and able for large scale distributed deployment is the way forward.

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying Nuclear waste is not a problem is like saying taking a shit in your neighbors yard is not a problem. Shit can be packed into plastic bags, composted, and eventually stops smelling. Some of us believe that if we can't generate power without creating waste for future generations, we should go without the power. Seriously, we don't need it.

> Saying Nuclear waste is not a problem is like saying taking a shit in your neighbors yard is not a problem. The weird thing is that you're taking a shit in your neighbor's yard. I mean if they do it in their own yard it's weird, but there's nothing wrong with it. I mean this is what we do with dog shit. The problem is that everyone shits. Sure, nuclear shit smells a lot more than solar shit or coal shit, but there'…

The places where uranium is mined is uninhabitable afterwards :(

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the odds of having large chunks of learned knowledge wiped out at this point? When the Romans did it, few could read/write and few people had access to the stored information of the day. That made it very easy to sequester knowledge. At this point in time, other than ELE type of events, can knowledge be kept away from all of humanity now? Sure, dictators can make it hard for the parts they control, but the r…

There is zero chance that we can communicate anything at those timespans. As I already wrote we have trouble to tell what happened 4000 years ago (how were the Pyramids build exactly?) and that is just a blink of an eye when compared to a million years. Ancient Egypt was a super advanced civilization continuously existing for 4000 years! Yet shortly after the decline nobody could read Hieroglyphs anymore. We don't kn…

To dig through the materials these bunkers are made of would require technology advanced enough they would know what radiation is and how to detect it.

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#338
post #4

Crazy they were able to label natural gas as “sustainable” but nuclear just barely squeaked in.

Natural gas or biogas? Same gas but the first is fossil while the other is made from fermenting sewage and hence renewable

Biogas is very similar to farming. You can produce meat and vegetables with net 0 carbon, and both can operate on using waste from other industries.

The problem comes when one introduce fossil fuels into the production chain because it makes economical sense to do so.

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#339
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but compare their CO2 footprints to nuclear. Have you a source that shows Nuclear is better? I hunted around a while back and got a large range of answers, but nuclear seemed consistent worse. Eg see page 29 of this link. https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/02/ipcc_wg3_ar5...

In that figure, if you look at the median (the black line), it's quite small. There is this one very anti-nuclear Stanford professor, who has managed to publish some estimates where the carbon footprint of nuclear power is way larger than in other estimates. These numbers are probably now forever part of the literature, and they make the range of published numbers quite large in every literature survey. Sometimes thi…

I find ideology-driven scientists to be very dangerous to humanity prosperity and progress. Of course he's insanely active on Twitter. Last post 8 minutes ago.

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#340
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The IPCC report on climate change mitigation puts nuclear median cost on par with wind power (cheaper than offshore, slightly more expensive than onshore), cheaper than solar, more expensive than hydro. In total, squarely on par with the usual suspects for green energy. And they include fuel and decommissioning in that cost. See page 71 of https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/02/ipcc_wg3_ar5... (caution, huge…

That report is a reasonable snapshot of knowledge at the time, but it was published in 2014 and some of the underlying data dates back to 2000. You can see the data sources that went into the technology-specific metrics in Annex II: https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/02/ipcc_wg3_ar5... "The data on nuclear power was taken from Lenzen (2008) and Warner and Heath (2012)." "Photovoltaic power: Ranges are based…

There was a post/thread about this a few weeks/months ago. The conclusion is always the same. There is not enough plants built to get economies of scale. (Plus modular nuclear is the way to go anyway.)

The EU or the US should announce that it's going to order 100+ plants. Completely different game. There's no point in competing with solar or wind otherwise.

Sure, this is politically untenable. :|

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