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Solar Is Cheapest Electricity in History, U.S. DOE Aims to Cut Costs 60% by 2030

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Re: Solar Is Cheapest Electricity in History, U.S. DOE Aims to Cut Costs 60% by 2030

#221
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's lithium batteries, isn't it? For storage to balance out fluctuations in renewable sources you shouldn't need to use lithium. It's used in cars and consumer devices because it can store a lot of energy for its size and weight and you don't have to mollycoddle it to avoid memory effects. Those are much less important concerns for this application. You'd build you battery facilities somewhere outside your cities,…

Right. Lithium batteries won't cut it. That leaves geographically-dependent hydroelectricity, which isn't so easy to build. And then proposed solutions that are still in the prototyping phase, and aren't commercially available.

I've really enjoyed reading your contribution to this discussion. To the extent I kind of wished there was a private message function.

Partially this is because we have similar views on a lot of the challenges facing a move to renewables. I think sometimes this comes across as being sceptical of the progress of renewables.

In my case, and I suspect in yours, that's not really the case. In fact I'm excited and interested in how we will solve these problems in a variety of different ways.

I think we are in agreement that lithium isn't going to be the answer to energy storage at grid scale. If for no other reason than being in direct competition with the electrification of transportation isn't ideal.

Personally I'm hopeful that Ambri's liquid metal battery will materialize.

What developments do you have your eye on?

Re: Solar Is Cheapest Electricity in History, U.S. DOE Aims to Cut Costs 60% by 2030

#222
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not enough energy. Hydropower reservoirs are typically many square kilometers of water surface, depth > 10 meters on average and a height differential on the order of 100 meters or more. Vary parameters according to geography, but it's not something that can be built without using geology for support.

Yeah but in this case, the hydropower is being used for power generation, not as a battery supplement for solar/wind, right? Does it need to be so massive to act as a replacement/alternative for Lithium battery banks?

The physics is pretty simple: At 100% conversion rate, 1 joule is one newton of force pulling one meter, and 1 watt is 1 joule per second.

So 1 kilowatt-hour is 3.6 million joules. One liter (kilogram) of water weighs approximately 10 newtons.

So take one cubic meter (1000 kilograms) of water and move it up one meter, and you have stored 0.0028 kWh. You can see this is where the math becomes tricky without using geology for help.

Let's say you can create a height differential of 50 meters by building in a smart way - each cubic meter of storage you build will now store you 0.139 kWh. And a cubic meter is quite a lot. A full Olympic-size swimming pool stores only 2500 cubic meters, equivalent to only 347 kWh.

That's only the battery capacity of three and a half Teslas, equivalent to the daily consumption of ~12 US homes. You need a lot of these 50-meter elevated Olympic-size swimming pools, and the water and generators to run them. I suppose it's sort of feasible engineering wise, but I doubt it'll be cheap enough. Comparing with the Teslas - can you get this done for the less of the order of $300,000, minus the cost of three luxury cars worth of components?

With batteries, we're getting there fast, and in a way that's economically sound.

Re: Solar Is Cheapest Electricity in History, U.S. DOE Aims to Cut Costs 60% by 2030

#223
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even achieving just one hour of storage globally amounts to 2.5 TWh of storage. By comparison the entire world produces ~300 GWh worth of lithium ion battery What's the point of this comparison? Lithium ion batteries are probably the least cost effective means of dealing with intermittency. It's also rare that the entire world is without wind and sun simultaneously. In terms of cost: Demand shaping < overproduction…

"Demand shaping" is a nice euphemism for energy shortages. And if we demand shaping we're just externalizing the cost to consumers that need to buy their own energy storage or change their energy usage patterns to accommodate the unreliable supply. Overproduction helps but doesn't eliminate intermittency. And pumped hydroelectricity is geographically dependent. The irony is that most places with extensive hydroelectr…

>Demand shaping" is a nice euphemism for energy shortages.

It's a euphemism for storage heaters, storage air-conditioning, aluminium smelters that dial usage up and down and smart car chargers.

Lithium ion batteries are useful too, of course, but they cost more.

This is a problem where market based solutions shine. The only reason that fact isn't getting rammed down our throats by lobbyists is that the people who got religion about markets tended to be oil/gas people, who have since been thrashing the "renewables are unreliable" drum.

>Overproduction helps but doesn't eliminate intermittency.

Why should the goal be to eliminate it when we can adapt to it and thrive?

Personally, I'm more excited for applications of periodic free/-ve priced electricity than I am worried about shortages.

Re: Solar Is Cheapest Electricity in History, U.S. DOE Aims to Cut Costs 60% by 2030

#224
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And you still are pretending that steam power plants running on hydrogen don't exist. Yet again, you originally said we could use gas turbines for hydrogen storage. Not steam turbines. Of course steam turbines can easily be run off hydrogen, you don't need compressor blades, combustors, or anything special. Just a source of heat, a boiler, and a steam turbine. This is less efficient, so there's good reason to devel…

Exactly! You went so far up your own asshole in denying the existence of hydrogen combustion in industrial use that you even forgot about steam turbines. The whole point was showing how ridiculous it was to go this far. It would be easy to sacrifice a bit of efficiency for a simpler system that's guaranteed to work and the basic premise would've been the same. No one until you came along did anyone thought there coul…

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Re: Solar Is Cheapest Electricity in History, U.S. DOE Aims to Cut Costs 60% by 2030

#225
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And you still are pretending that steam power plants running on hydrogen don't exist. Yet again, you originally said we could use gas turbines for hydrogen storage. Not steam turbines. Of course steam turbines can easily be run off hydrogen, you don't need compressor blades, combustors, or anything special. Just a source of heat, a boiler, and a steam turbine. This is less efficient, so there's good reason to devel…

Exactly! You went so far up your own asshole in denying the existence of hydrogen combustion in industrial use that you even forgot about steam turbines. The whole point was showing how ridiculous it was to go this far. It would be easy to sacrifice a bit of efficiency for a simpler system that's guaranteed to work and the basic premise would've been the same. No one until you came along did anyone thought there coul…

[deleted]

Re: Solar Is Cheapest Electricity in History, U.S. DOE Aims to Cut Costs 60% by 2030

#226
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't demand shaping things like discounts during certain periods? My electricity provider lets me set a 'free hour of power' every day, as long as that hour is off peak.

Yes, those incentives exist to try and shape demand. But in practice, people rarely take advantage of them. And some things really can't be shaped. The pumps that deliver your water cannot have their demand shaped, unless you're willing to go without running water for some hours of the day.

>in practice, people rarely take advantage of them

Overproduction is still not that common. These days wind and solar mostly just provide power that would have otherwise been produced by natural gas even when operating at peak capacity.

It is getting off the ground though. The UK has an energy tarriff popular with electric car owners for this reason. They can occasionally get paid to charge their cars. This type of thing will only become more common.

>And some things really can't be shaped.

Obviously not. Nonetheless pretending that all renewable intermittency has to be made up for with expensive lithium ion batteries is backwards thinking.

Re: Solar Is Cheapest Electricity in History, U.S. DOE Aims to Cut Costs 60% by 2030

#227
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And you still are pretending that steam power plants running on hydrogen don't exist. Yet again, you originally said we could use gas turbines for hydrogen storage. Not steam turbines. Of course steam turbines can easily be run off hydrogen, you don't need compressor blades, combustors, or anything special. Just a source of heat, a boiler, and a steam turbine. This is less efficient, so there's good reason to devel…

Exactly! You went so far up your own asshole in denying the existence of hydrogen combustion in industrial use that you even forgot about steam turbines. The whole point was showing how ridiculous it was to go this far. It would be easy to sacrifice a bit of efficiency for a simpler system that's guaranteed to work and the basic premise would've been the same. No one until you came along did anyone thought there coul…

[deleted]

Re: Solar Is Cheapest Electricity in History, U.S. DOE Aims to Cut Costs 60% by 2030

#228
post #60
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These will start to be important problems when the quantity of power produced by solar panels is about 100 times larger than current world marketed energy consumption. I expect that this will happen in about 30 years. You predict energy needs will increase 100x in 30 years? Surely you mean just solar energy production?

Production and consumption are objective. Needs are subjective. The only objective necessity for a living thing is its death — everything else is optional. To think otherwise is wishful thinking. The behavior of living systems is to expand when not constrained by resources; the human economy has been constrained by fossil fuels for 250 years, due to its inability to take advantage of solar energy, much as it was cons…

That was a lot to read to figure out that you did mean you think energy consumption will increase 100x in 30 years.

That's crazy. You do realize electricity consumption has actually declined in the US in 7/10 years over the last decade, despite a growing population and economy [1]. Worldwide as standard of living catches up with the US, electricity consumption will increase - but it would take a massive unforeseen demand to make your prediction come true. I don't see it happening.

[1] https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/use-of-elect...

Re: Solar Is Cheapest Electricity in History, U.S. DOE Aims to Cut Costs 60% by 2030

#229
post #228
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Production and consumption are objective. Needs are subjective. The only objective necessity for a living thing is its death — everything else is optional. To think otherwise is wishful thinking. The behavior of living systems is to expand when not constrained by resources; the human economy has been constrained by fossil fuels for 250 years, due to its inability to take advantage of solar energy, much as it was cons…

That was a lot to read to figure out that you did mean you think energy consumption will increase 100x in 30 years. That's crazy. You do realize electricity consumption has actually declined in the US in 7/10 years over the last decade, despite a growing population and economy [1]. Worldwide as standard of living catches up with the US, electricity consumption will increase - but it would take a massive unforeseen de…

"That's crazy" isn't a rebuttal; it's just a statement of surprise. But I already know that what I said was surprising. As I said, in 01800 it was "crazy" to contemplate people safely traveling at 30 miles per hour (13 m/s in non-medieval units) or crossing the Atlantic under steam, and in 01830 it was being done, if not yet commonplace. In 01954 it was "crazy" to use a computer for "clerical work" like compilation; in 01984 children played with computers in schools, running BASIC interpreters and paint programs. How could we go about figuring out what's really going to happen in 30 years? It certainly isn't by simply believing the least surprising ideas. Instead, I suggest we explore the underlying dynamics of the system.

You didn't answer my question. Are there other limiting factors I don't know about? That wasn't a rhetorical question. I'm very interested to know what other possible limits we might encounter between here and Kardashev Type 1.

— ⁂ —

You seem to have shifted from discussing energy consumption to discussing electricity consumption; perhaps you aren't aware that there's a difference. Marketed energy consumption in the US has actually increased over the last 10 years by about 15%, from about 90 EJ/year (2.9 TW) to about 105 EJ/year (3.3 TW)—again, excluding agricultural products. Only about a third of current energy consumption in the US is electrical.

The page you linked says US electrical energy consumption is only 450 GW or so, which would be under 15% of the total, but that's after the efficiency losses from electrical generation and distribution. It also points out that US electrical energy consumption has increased in 59 of the last 69 years, with a total increase of 13× during that time. Total US energy use, however, has only increased by 3× during that time; it doubled roughly from 01950 to 01970 (from about 1 TW to about 2 TW), and has increased by about 50% since then, four times slower. What might account for this slowdown?

Well, energy prices have been relatively high and volatile since 01970. Looking at the last ten years from 02011 to 02014, WTI was in the US$70–100/bbl range, although since then it's dropped below US$50 and very briefly to US$20 at the beginning of the covid pandemic. By contrast, in the 01945–01970 period before the energy crisis, it was fairly stable in the US$20–30 range (adjusted for inflation), and since then it's mostly been US$40–100. So it's unsurprising, in retrospect, that in the last 50 years there's been strong pressure to conserve energy: energy cost about four times as much, so energy use grew about four times slower.

There are places, such as Germany, that have been shifting their economic production to lower-energy-intensity sectors of the economy and higher-efficiency ways of using energy, with the consequence that their energy use has actually declined. This is partly driven by energy prices, but more by strong conservation efforts led by the Green Party, which have been critical to the current dramatic reduction in the cost of photovoltaic energy.

And precisely what we're discussing here is that solar photovoltaic energy is now dramatically cheaper than fossil-fuel sources of energy, even in some non-tropical countries like the US. And the total solar resource is, as I said, about a thousand times larger than total world marketed energy consumption. So we should expect dramatic growth in energy consumption in the next decades. Maybe not in Germany, though.

— ⁂ —

As for your plaint about the length, that was under 1000 words! It takes literally under three minutes to read. If you think that's a lot to read, I'd hate to see how you react to a so-called book. I know this is probably hard to imagine, but I regularly spend not just three consecutive minutes reading a text written in one of these "books", but literally multiple hours. Sometimes they don't even have pie charts in bright primary colors! Terrifying, I know. But it's important, because when I read things and carefully consider them, making calculations, I find out when I'm wrong, which is very often. (So-called "research papers" are even more important, because they're more up to date, but they take longer to read even though they're shorter.) Then I change my opinion to be less wrong. I recommend trying it!

However, it does have the disadvantage that it forces me to abandon popular beliefs that can't possibly be correct in favor of "crazy" ones that are backed up by evidence and reasoning. Sometimes, to my surprise, the popular beliefs turn out to have been correct after all. More often reality turns out to have been just as crazy as I thought.

— ⁂ —

So, I don't know what will happen over the next 30 years, but I think a 100× increase in world marketed energy consumption due to PV is eminently plausible. Maybe it'll only be 3×, maybe 1000×. Maybe there will be another world war, worse than the last two, and world marketed energy consumption will drop 10×. But it is not plausible that things will continue as they have for the last 50 years.

Re: Solar Is Cheapest Electricity in History, U.S. DOE Aims to Cut Costs 60% by 2030

#230
post #216
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting! Do you have any idea why it's so much cheaper?

Hyper-competitive low-margin market, many very efficient vertically-integrated solar sales businesses (sales, installation, logistics), lower selling costs (very engaged consumers), most homes single story so lower installation costs, and lower permitting and connection costs.

Thank you very much! Do you have any idea how the costs of a typical Australian rooftop system break down? I'm curious about the relative importance of these factors.
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