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Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

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191–200 of 623 posts

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GGP asked whether collective action returns a sustainable slice of corporate revenues, i.e. do unions demand so much that it harms the company. I’m saying that they should look at executive compensation through the same lens.

Elon isn't hired management. He built the company, and risked all of his personal assets in doing so.

From what I understand, Musk as an already wealthy man would be able to easily protect his personal assets if Tesla were to declare bankruptcy. He would be fine, employees, living paycheck to paycheck, would not be.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#192

dang, can we change the link/title to https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL4N2LN4L0 ? Snippet below: > Tesla CEO Musk's anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board > Tesla Inc Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk’s 2018 tweet threatening employees would lose their stock options if they formed a union was illegal and should be deleted, the U.S. National Labor Relations Board said on Thursday.

The action desribed in that tweet would be illegal, but is the tweet itself illegal? Why should the tweet be deleted? I'd rather keep it for posterity.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#193
post #110
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All German car manufacturers are heavily unionized. VW has one of the strongest unions in Germany and is one of the largest car manufacturers in the world.

That's fine for companies in industries that are reasonably mature. But if you want to start a new company in a dynamic industry, Germany is very much not where you want to be. German GDP per capita is about 45k, as compared to 65k per capita in the US. But that hides a lot. Germany's most productive city is Berlin. Berlin's GDP per capita is....45k. The US on the other hand has cities like San Francisco, with a GDP…

GDP per capita has very little to do with it. The main differences between the US and Europe,when it comes to tech are these: 1) VC sector in Europe is where the US one was 20 years ago. 2) The US, even though it has states, it's still pretty much one market,while Europe,even when talking EU, is a collection of counties with very different cultures, languages,and attitudes towards innovation (e.g. Scandinavia is almost cashless society by now,while Germans are obsessed with cash).

In Germany, there are a lot of so called 'hidden champions' - companies that are small but focus on some higher end, niche products, e.g. oil filters,special purpose ball bearings,etc. The same is the case in many other European countries. This stay small approach is hard understand from the US,or Chinese perspective,where if you don't make $1B in revenue, nobody's going to put you on a map.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#194
post #188
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why are so many people in this thread complaining about "having" to join a union?

The law bans employers from requiring people to be union members before they are hired. In states without right to work laws it is still legal to require employees to join the union after being hired.

So it's still a closed shop in practice? Was the only point of passing this law to confuse the issue?

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#195
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are inherently evil, as is any organization which forces you to join. I lived in USSR until late teens and I remember how hard I was pressured to join into Komsomol. And that was when system was already collapsing. Unions are even worse than that - you join them or you have to give up your career. They only help mediocre lazy donkeys, and if I was Musk I would want them nowhere near my business

My Danish engineers union helps me look over employment contracts before I sign so I fully understand my rights and unenforceable terms, they tell me if I'm asking for too little in salary, and they give me great insurance rates (like USAA in the states) for home, salary, and dental. They're also there for me if I just want to talk about my career or need guidance. I'm not forced into being a member but I really valu…

Personally, I feel that a lot of this is driven by inequality. If you feel that nothing you do makes things any better, then you'll look to take out your frustration on other people, preferably people who don't have enough power to fight back (i.e. your fellow citizens).

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#196

I wish the NRLB would be much harsher against business owners and executives who engage in anti-union rhetoric and behaviors. People have the right to form unions, lying about losing benefits and lowering pay should be handled much more harshly, there should be actual penalties instead of just having to read a statement and delete a tweet.

Isn't the entire point of a union to give you negotiating leverage? If you need the government to effectively do the negotiating for you by levying fines and such whenever the company goes against the union, what exactly is the point of the union?

The governments role should be to ensure a level playing field between employers and labor. That means the government at a minimum needs to protect those who want to organize.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#197

dang, can we change the link/title to https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL4N2LN4L0 ? Snippet below: > Tesla CEO Musk's anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board > Tesla Inc Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk’s 2018 tweet threatening employees would lose their stock options if they formed a union was illegal and should be deleted, the U.S. National Labor Relations Board said on Thursday.

Aside from "watchdog" as opposed to NLRB, what's wrong with the title? The article describes a bunch of required actions besides just deleting the tweet.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they usually don't... Unionized industries tend to be adversarial - if the employees get a better deal, then the employer does less well. Therefore receiving options is a poor negotiation tactic.

Only in the US setup. Europe uses codetermination and other systems that align them with their employers. Although they tend to get paid less than US tech companies, but so does everyone.

What ? Seems like I am better of without a union if I am getting more pay?. Also where is the conversation around building a better product to add more value in this union debate?

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#199
post #134

Working in France completely changed my view of unions. I sure hope the horrors I saw won’t happen to Tesla.

Can you elaborate? Because for me, working in scandinavia, unions looked quite useful and reasonable.

I had this naive image in mind that unions are labor activists mobilizing against exploitative corporate practices. What I witnessed opened my eyes to the realities on ground, that seemed like almost opposite. As usual, life is more complicated!

* The objective of trade unions is not to protect workers and improve their conditions (at least directly). It’s to protect themselves.

* In every organization, there exists people with diverse attributes: capabilities, attitudes towards work/life, etc. There are always people who don’t want to or can’t work; and guess what they do? They join unions to protect themselves. Over time union center became international house of suckers and weirdos, each worse than the other.

* In an effort to protect themselves, unions politicized the work environment. They put themselves everywhere in key committees, including a union committee having last word on hirings and firings. That made them unfirable. They exploited the coronavirus situation, to blame employers and opponents. A scientific project can become a playground for union politics. I believe in climate change, but not in politicizing it. They seize every opportunity to attack employers and those not aligned with them. The goal is to use any chance to perpetuate an image that they protect people.

* Union will plot against any excellence in organization. To minimize contrast, they work hard to fail good people and projects around, or portray them as worker-abusers (ie, the reason that they succeed is because they abuse people).

* Unions will fiercely defend status quo and do not allow any constructive reform. The area of specialty that they advertised for themselves was an ancient technology from 1980s (and even that they wouldn’t do it). Every time people suggested to reform the department activities, they refused the proposals. You may not believe it, but department told them, OK, you can keep doing your own activities, we don’t reform them, but other people can start projects in orthogonal directions not related to yours. They still refused (they didn’t want competition) and basically forced everyone to work on their ancient advertised area of activity.

* Union engaged in all sorts of abusive practices. It was disgusting to see a lot of them rarely showed up at work (which was strange considering that they put themselves in various committees). I asked a department manager (“responsable”) how come this or that guy shows up at work only few times a year. He said, if you are a known member of union you can do that, and this is an issue in France. They yell, and bully people, create a toxic environment for others, repel and fire those not blending in etc,

* Union members felt very entitled and justified their actions by making themselves believe a skewed view of the world. They felt that they are entitled to a life even with ZERO work, and world owes to them.

* Unions will be perpetually on strike. What makes you think they will be happy with a laid back 9-5 job with decent pay and great benefits? Even with no work, they still go on strikes. They take tax money from society with little contribution, and make your commute and life periodically miserable.

* Unions are especially problematic in public sector, where incentives are aligned with cronyism not meritocracy. A lot of people are hired who lack abilities to perform the work in question. They form large powerful unions.

Don’t get me wrong. There might be a place for “traditional” textbook unions. But I don’t know if it ever works in practice. My experience was negative and counterintuitive.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#200
post #85

people need to look at the AmazonNews twitter handle, spews corpo BS at every turn almost like some intern got hold of that account

They pretty beautifully baited Sen. Elizabeth Warren into running her mouth today. She wrote - " I'll fight to break up Big Tech so you’re not powerful enough to heckle senators with snotty tweets. " If she brings an anti-trust suit against them, it will be so easy for Amazon's lawyers to argue that she is only doing so to violate their first amendment rights, which she full out admitted to today.

> "I'll fight to break up Big Tech so you’re not powerful enough to heckle senators with snotty tweets."

I thought I liked her policies but this sounds authoritarian. I'd prefer politicians stay tf off twotter unless they got the stomach for it. They're speaking about "authenticity" and the problem of people hiding behind handles whenever given the chance. But they are themselves only interested in "engineering consent" for those who bankrolled their move into office. The consensus should be that they have to be able to put up with a very wide variety of opinions (and most certainly the "snooty" kind).

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