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Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

reuters.com

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Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#61

Post by avs733 »

CameronNemo wrote: post #33

dang, can we change the link/title to https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL4N2LN4L0 ? Snippet below: > Tesla CEO Musk's anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board > Tesla Inc Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk’s 2018 tweet threatening employees would lose their stock options if they formed a union was illegal and should be deleted, the U.S. National Labor Relations Board said on Thursday.

Completely agree, the use of watchdog here as opposed to “federal labor law board” is problematic vagueness

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#62

Post by fakename11 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #54
kova12 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Labor, Capital - jeez there's plenty of countries built on Marxist ideology you are advocating. No, there aren't. There are plenty of countries built on Leninist (and it's descendants, including Maoist) ideology, which advertise themselves as being Marxist as well, but Leninism sharply deviates from Marxism on a number of key points largely because Marxism is grounded in the necessity of starting with mature capita…

[flagged]

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#63

Post by mhh__ »

mrkstu wrote: post #57
mhh__ wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe in the practice of Marxism, however I do believe that Marxism broadly calls correctly the issues society has.

Identifying the issues is much less difficult than articulating effective solutions.

Still difficult though.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#64

Post by npad »

justin66 wrote: post #43
npad wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm taking it to mean union employees wouldn't get new grants. Which makes sense to me - I have a hard time squaring how you can be in a union with an adversarial relationship to management, whilst at the same time being an owner of the company. It's one or the other.

> I have a hard time squaring how you can be in a union with an adversarial relationship to management, whilst at the same time being an owner of the company. It's one or the other. Unionized ESOP companies aren't uncommon. You've got it a bit backwards about the adversarial relationship: having an ESOP and a union isn't some kind of organizational impossibility, and it can decrease the probability of a serious dispu…

Interesting, yeah those are good points. I can certainly see it reducing the severity of disputes in theory.

In practice though I'm skeptical. I've read a little about the history of UAW. They really seemed to view workers vs mgmt as an adversarial zero sum game. Meanwhile Toyota were developing their production system using the kaizen principle of bottom up continuous improvement. Unions played a huge role in making US autos uncompetitive against the Japanese brands for a long time.

I want to be pro-union but it's hard when you observe their real world behaviour. All too often they slowly strangle their company, making it less and less competitive and innovative and ultimately dooming it to defeat by new entrants who aren't yet encumbered by unions.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#65

Post by dnautics »

telaelit wrote: post #55

I wish the NRLB would be much harsher against business owners and executives who engage in anti-union rhetoric and behaviors. People have the right to form unions, lying about losing benefits and lowering pay should be handled much more harshly, there should be actual penalties instead of just having to read a statement and delete a tweet.

for behaviours, yes, but for rhetoric, you're toeing a very dangerous line up against the 1st amendment.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#66

Post by neolog »

kova12 wrote: post #44
dundarious wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That logic doesn't hold if you share a belief in Tesla's stated mission "to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport", and also want to be in a union -- which is a reasonable set of beliefs and desires to hold. And I don't see how unions would be intrinsically incompatible with Tesla's mission or operations. There's no reason I know of to hold that it is an immutable fact that Tesla's workers are non-union -- s…

Unions are inherently evil, as is any organization which forces you to join. I lived in USSR until late teens and I remember how hard I was pressured to join into Komsomol. And that was when system was already collapsing. Unions are even worse than that - you join them or you have to give up your career. They only help mediocre lazy donkeys, and if I was Musk I would want them nowhere near my business

> if I was Musk I would want them nowhere near my business

Unions advocate for workers, not management. It's normal for management to not want unions.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#67

Post by dundarious »

IntelMiner wrote: post #45
kova12 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are inherently evil, as is any organization which forces you to join. I lived in USSR until late teens and I remember how hard I was pressured to join into Komsomol. And that was when system was already collapsing. Unions are even worse than that - you join them or you have to give up your career. They only help mediocre lazy donkeys, and if I was Musk I would want them nowhere near my business

I think comparing workers wanting collective representation is a bit of a reach to the authoritarian disaster that was the USSR

At the very least a comparison to Germany or other highly industrialized wealthy Western countries might be more apt.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#68

Post by jakelazaroff »

sjwright wrote: post #53
hellomyguys wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or Tesla’s workers can collectively decide for what’s best for themselves?

I have no problem with unions so long as membership is entirely voluntary for every employee. The problem I have is coercive collectivism. Also, is there any evidence that collective action returns a sustainably larger slice of corporate revenues?

Tesla’s CEO is the richest human on the planet and we’re worried about workers taking too much? If Elon’s stressing over sustainability, let him take the pay cut.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#69

Post by neolog »

sjwright wrote: post #53
hellomyguys wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or Tesla’s workers can collectively decide for what’s best for themselves?

I have no problem with unions so long as membership is entirely voluntary for every employee. The problem I have is coercive collectivism. Also, is there any evidence that collective action returns a sustainably larger slice of corporate revenues?

It's a commons problem; voluntary membership means free-riders will destroy the collective resource.
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