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Fossil Chat

fossil-scm.org

161–170 of 172 posts

Re: Fossil Chat

#161

So they built their own chat room feature? I feel that's a bit short-sighted, but I'll admit I'm only a random opinionated passer-by. You can certainly do it, but you'll run quickly into issues and be buried in feature requests because like it or not, a chat room isn't just "a couple messages being passed back and forth" Hand rolling your own communication tool is a great way to become so busy you don't have time for…

I had to build chat functionality into my own project. All I support is text and image/webm uploads. No, emojis. No edits, no quoting, no direct messaging. I wish there was a standard for this with implementations in every programming language. The only thing that I want to build myself is the UI.

Re: Fossil Chat

#162
post #149
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shun the secrets-leaking commit: https://fossil-scm.org/home/doc/trunk/www/shunning.wiki

Thanks! So... there's both shun and scrub in Fossil, which lie about project history? Or is is not accurate to call it lying in this case?

It is lying, it's lying as a last resort, not as something you do every day.

Re: Fossil Chat

#163
post #159
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about scrub as it doesn't alter version history but user data such as passwords, IP addresses, etc.; but to shun an artifact definitely meets my criteria for falsifying history and thus lying. I neither suffer from cognitive dissonance nor feel the need to defend a piece of software's honour.

It is interesting that Fossil’s pages on shun and scrub are notably absent of all the negative language that the rebase page contains.

What negative language? You seem to be attributing your own negative connotations to a word that is being used descriptively—not disparagingly. And the shun page explains that you should not be removing content willy nilly but only as a last resort to, for example, remove sensitive information from the blockchain. The Fossil authors are perpetually behoving users not to use shun unless it's absolutely necessary, but provide the feature as a necessity in case someone foolishly commits sensitive information that could land them in legal trouble. Would it make you feel better if there was a note on the page that said "NOTE: By using this command you will be lying about the history of the repository and should document the removal explaining why the artifact was excised from history." Submit a patch. Improve it.

Re: Fossil Chat

#164
post #103
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. In particular “Rebasing is lying about the project history” is misleading and frankly, just downright lame hyperbole. I actually want to try Fossil, but this text is so dishonest and hyperbolic, it’s off-putting and preventing me from trying Fossil. This feels like a sign that Fossil might not be focused on real world user needs. It’s not uncommon to bump into this claim in threads about git, I don’t think th…

I consider a version control system to be a history of a project. If you change the history to something that is materially different, which rebase does, then you are lying about the history. You cannot white-wash this fact. The history Git and in Fossil is only precise to the transaction level. A key-stroke or backspace is not a transaction. A single iteration of the edit-compile-test cycle is not a transaction. A t…

The language in the rebase article [1] has been softened somewhat.

[1]: https://fossil-scm.org/home/doc/trunk/www/rebaseharm.md

Re: Fossil Chat

#165
post #155
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I consider a version control system to be a history of a project. If you change the history to something that is materially different, which rebase does, then you are lying about the history. You cannot white-wash this fact. The history Git and in Fossil is only precise to the transaction level. A key-stroke or backspace is not a transaction. A single iteration of the edit-compile-test cycle is not a transaction. A t…

Huge respect for your work on SQLite. I can’t say I agree with this though. > If you change the history to something that is materially different, which rebase does, then you are lying about the history. You cannot white-wash this fact. I use rebase to clean up the history of my feature branches before merging to release branches. In that sense I don’t see a moral difference between not committing my work at all unti…

There is a better way to achieve your goal of removing uninteresting commits from the project history. Rather than explain it here, I will write an article about it and post it on HN. Stay tuned.

Re: Fossil Chat

#166
post #164
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I consider a version control system to be a history of a project. If you change the history to something that is materially different, which rebase does, then you are lying about the history. You cannot white-wash this fact. The history Git and in Fossil is only precise to the transaction level. A key-stroke or backspace is not a transaction. A single iteration of the edit-compile-test cycle is not a transaction. A t…

The language in the rebase article [1] has been softened somewhat. [1]: https://fossil-scm.org/home/doc/trunk/www/rebaseharm.md

It is a little better, and I’d like to acknowledge that you were open to the idea and thank you for taking action.

I haven’t been entirely persuasive here, so I’m reflecting on how to better elaborate my thoughts. The singular word “lying” isn’t really the main thrust of my objection.

Maybe the biggest issue I see still there is the assertions about the intent behind rebase, which means the intent of git’s developers and git rebase users. It’s not really true that rebase intends to “deceive”, that’s not how the authors of the feature talk about it or frame the feature. In my opinion, it’s a semantic cop-out to claim the words are factual and non-judgemental, when the negative thrust of your choice of language is evident, and when there are clearly less loaded words available to you.

It is in that sense - your assertion that the primary intent behind rebase is to deceive people - that I feel like the Fossil documentation is still not being particularly truthful with the facts.

One way to look at this is to ask what would happen if git removed rebase. Right now, if that happened, and git didn’t change anything else about it’s design, it would be somewhat frustrating and unusable. Rebase doesn’t exist on an island, and removing it would have negative consequences, and need to be replaced with other features. Git doesn’t have a way to present a clean history without rebase there. It would be awesome for Fossil’s story to note how the fundamental design is an improvement over git.

I know your framing and language is intentional because you believe strongly in the idea of preserving project history. That is an acceptable, even laudable goal. I’m for it. Git did not have that goal when it was designed, and it’s not fair to selectively leave out that fact when criticizing. Aren’t there better ways to make the point without presuming to proclaim what the intent of rebase is? Can’t the harmful implications of rebase be demonstrated rather than framing it as “fictitious”, “fabricated”, “counter-factual”? Could you talk about it without accusing innocent bystanders of “white-washing” and being “untruthful”?

BTW, I think the Pro Git book commentary isn’t that fair to hold up as evidence for two reasons - they didn’t design rebase, and they are also trying to softly address the very argument you’re putting forward, because it keeps coming around. The existence of their comments doesn’t somehow prove that git designed rebase to “lie”, it only shows that they heard you.

Re: Fossil Chat

#167
post #166
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The language in the rebase article [1] has been softened somewhat. [1]: https://fossil-scm.org/home/doc/trunk/www/rebaseharm.md

It is a little better, and I’d like to acknowledge that you were open to the idea and thank you for taking action. I haven’t been entirely persuasive here, so I’m reflecting on how to better elaborate my thoughts. The singular word “lying” isn’t really the main thrust of my objection. Maybe the biggest issue I see still there is the assertions about the intent behind rebase, which means the intent of git’s developers…

Can you see, though, how using rebase to "clean" the historical record—irrespective of your intentions—is in fact deceiving the reader by presenting a narrative that is in fact different to the actual events that took place? If so, please provide a better way to convey this message than how it is currently being stated. If you can't see the deception—motive notwithstanding—then we're at an impasse.

Re: Fossil Chat

#168
post #158
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's on you that you take it as a value judgment of your or anyone else's character. It's quite literally an accurate description of the rebase feature and the result of its use. And criticism of Git's design philosophy should not be misconstrued as a pretend crusade or personal attack. I presume the lead dev of Fossil and SQLite places a high price on auditability for not only personal philosophical reasons but pr…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19886216

That looks to be someone presenting their opinion—not a statement of fact. Ironically, too, considering the guidelines they link guides users to not do what they're doing.

Re: Fossil Chat

#169

So they built their own chat room feature? I feel that's a bit short-sighted, but I'll admit I'm only a random opinionated passer-by. You can certainly do it, but you'll run quickly into issues and be buried in feature requests because like it or not, a chat room isn't just "a couple messages being passed back and forth" Hand rolling your own communication tool is a great way to become so busy you don't have time for…

I had to build chat functionality into my own project. All I support is text and image/webm uploads. No, emojis. No edits, no quoting, no direct messaging. I wish there was a standard for this with implementations in every programming language. The only thing that I want to build myself is the UI.

Sure, but if there was a standard, then building the UI would be a massive undertaking, for the standard would be all-encompassing.

Building a UI for a minimalist chat interface is easy, but if the standard supports all the fluff features that some people want...

Re: Fossil Chat

#170
post #168
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19886216

That looks to be someone presenting their opinion—not a statement of fact. Ironically, too, considering the guidelines they link guides users to not do what they're doing.

Welcome to Hacker News. Since you’re new here, you seem to be unaware of the fact that the person who’s opinion you’re referring to and attempting to dismiss is one of the moderators of HN, and one of the authors and keepers of this site’s guidelines.
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