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Technical interview methods pale in comparison to playing Factorio with someone

erikmcclure.com

301–310 of 358 posts

Re: Technical interview methods pale in comparison to playing Factorio with someone

#301
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demolishing your base and building a new one is not anything like refactoring.

It's exactly like refactoring. You can replace a component that does something with a different structure for accomplishing that. Of course, if the system was tangled, then you may need to refactor other components first (read: relocate them to give room). The structure of the base around something is going to place limits on the refactoring. If the base is so horrible that you decide to gut it entirely, it's just li…

The efficiency of "refactoring" in Factorio is like refactoring code using notepad while typing with your toes and you're only allowed to compile the source once you're done. Which is to say: on a completely different level!

Re: Technical interview methods pale in comparison to playing Factorio with someone

#302
post #58

We used this a couple times at Sandstorm back in the day. At the end of the interview the candidate would play Factorio cooperatively with the team for a while. I think it is remarkably effective at identifying the kinds of skills and personality traits that a software engineer actually needs to have in day-to-day work. You can find out if someone is self-directed, how fast they work, whether they produce clean desig…

> * Don't even think about using ML for this, that doesn't solve biases, it just hides them in a black box. Can you clarify: what is "ML" here? "Machine learning", ML the language, MatLab, "machine language" (a.k.a. assembly), Matt LeBlanc? I'm out of ideas...

Machine learning

Re: Technical interview methods pale in comparison to playing Factorio with someone

#303

Please don't. Better, I'll remove the please and go JUST DONT FUCKING DO IT. Hiring is broken because most people hiring aren't good at it and the people working in tech are pretty much idiots (I'm focusing more on SV-startup, 5hour discussion about aeropress, put people down because they chose vim or emacs - people kinds). From 'cultural' fit interviews (who the fuck cares if you are a sikh or an atheist, whiskey dr…

> people that seem to base their identity and life around work, and the ones that actually are well rounded people that don't care about which coffee grind size you use on your morning crap of joe. These don't seem related. I happily base my identity around my work. I don't care about my coworkers personalities or inclinations at all, as long as they're not assholes and they're competent. Maybe I'm misunderstanding w…

What I mean by basing your identity about work is that your personality, your life, your social circles, etc etc is based around work. Is like someone basing their identity on their sexual orientation, or the sports club they support. Their work is their life, almost a cult like following, and use that work for making others part of that circle (think cultural fit shit, about people not wanting to hire/promote people because they don't hang around for friday evening beer social hour, or in a kind of upper management thing, not wanting to hire people that don't play golf)

Re: Technical interview methods pale in comparison to playing Factorio with someone

#304
post #58

We used this a couple times at Sandstorm back in the day. At the end of the interview the candidate would play Factorio cooperatively with the team for a while. I think it is remarkably effective at identifying the kinds of skills and personality traits that a software engineer actually needs to have in day-to-day work. You can find out if someone is self-directed, how fast they work, whether they produce clean desig…

> Regular interviews bias towards people that are charismatic, not effective.

A cooperative multiplayer game is also going to be a similar soft skills check that favors people that can communicate not just well, but also charismatically.

That said, a possible advantage to doing that in a game, as opposed to a regular soft skills interview (or worse trying to force such soft skill checks into the pressure cooker of a whiteboard interview or puzzle questions) is that you maybe provide an environment where the interviewee can be dopamine hacked into believing they can relax and you maybe get a glimpse into how the person's soft skills check out on the other side of that boundary where interviewee knows that they need to be "on" and acting.

I'm not actually sure if that is good or bad, but a lot of my takeaway from this article and other comments in these threads is it sort of feels like there's a lot of excuses for "pick a game that seems technically similar", but most of the "good feedback" that seems to be coming back from these experiences resembles what history tells us about regular interviews versus technical interviews: soft skills matter a lot more than what you can gauge technically in an interview. Most technical interviews are just soft skills interviews under the pressure cooker of taking a non-standardized pop quiz your professor decided you need to take because you showed up to class in only your underwear (and also you are flying for some reason in this nightmare). Cooperative games possibly present the opposite of the pressure cooker: dopamine hacking the interviewee an excuse to let the pressure seem like it is off while you are still doing that same sort of soft skills check.

(Aside: problem solving is classically a "soft skill". "Behavioral interviews" were as much about problem solving decades before the software industry invented the "technical" interview.)

(Further aside: This sort of dopamine hacking is very familiar to anyone that's seen Fraternity/Sorority rushes. Soft skills are hugely important for "group fit"/"team fit" in college social groups as they are in employment groups, and seeing how potential new members interact in "fun"/"game" situations often tells you more about the person than if you sat down and interviewed them one-on-one in a suit and tie or equivalent and they know they have to be "on". Rushes include both of those things for many reasons.)

Re: Technical interview methods pale in comparison to playing Factorio with someone

#305
post #187

Please don't. Better, I'll remove the please and go JUST DONT FUCKING DO IT. Hiring is broken because most people hiring aren't good at it and the people working in tech are pretty much idiots (I'm focusing more on SV-startup, 5hour discussion about aeropress, put people down because they chose vim or emacs - people kinds). From 'cultural' fit interviews (who the fuck cares if you are a sikh or an atheist, whiskey dr…

Thank you for writing this. It bothers me that the genealogy of leetcode has been completely obscured as it comes from competitive programming competitions whose primary demographic were who? Those smart people from Stanford or MIT. Once you realize the "who", it becomes even more clear for me why we're dealing with 'i have my social life at work, so I want people I can hang out with'-type people when we're preparing…

Given how accepting techies (in the US and even Europe) have been of "Chinese folk" and "Indian folk", I don't really see why they would be any less accepting of "Black folk". This stereotype really needs to die.

Re: Technical interview methods pale in comparison to playing Factorio with someone

#306
post #125

I am a senior engineer and have been programming for close to two decades. I picked up Factorio a few months ago and felt overwhelmed. I couldn't finish the tutorial. I think my problem is spatial relations--it is something I've always struggled with (how to arrange furniture in a room, solve a jigsaw, etc). I don't think this is a detriment to my programming ability at all--spatial relations really never enters into…

Also a senior engineer. I tried factorio demo out for maybe 30 minutes, but hated the fact that I actually have to walk the engineer around and do menial tasks like resource collection myself. Why can't I just do stuff with mouse cursor like in most other top-down strategy games? Maybe the game changes in later stages, but the demo seemed to be full of nonsense busywork that is prevalent in survival games.

> and do menial tasks like resource collection myself

They've actually changed the early game so this part isn't necessary anymore (assuming you're talking about mining ore).

Re: Technical interview methods pale in comparison to playing Factorio with someone

#307
One thing that has worked for me is to just give easier coding interviews. Not fizz-buzz easy, but not totally unnecessarily hard either.

The trick from there is to be very well prepared yourself as an interviewer, and to make sure you’ve chosen a good problem. Good in this case can be anything, it should just be so thing that you know really well.

I like this approach a lot because if they’re great, then they should code the problem flawlessly in, say, 10-15 minutes. If it’s just an off day for them then there’s plenty of time to talk and see how they go about figuring out how to fix their first problem, ie they don’t know how to start. This also closely emulates how work is too. Most of what you have to do at work is actually quite easy if you really understand why you’re there everyday. If it’s not, then how do you go about fixing that? So this approach accounts for a lot of different styles.

Some people are just plain smart, and they’ll get it right away. Other people are very unassuming and just ask questions until they feel like they have the confidence to propose a plan.

Also you have a way of screening people who aren’t ready for the job. If they rush into a solution that’s bad and are defensive, then they’re not ready. Remember, this is an easy problem.

One thing I think is often left out when discussing interviewing is that it in fact is often a game, because work is often a game. You don’t get perfectly written asígnennos, delivered via email, where you just have to implement a function according to an interface. Instead, your job is to create business value for the company, while enjoying your life. I think a good interview format should actually lean into that. No, it’s not perfect, they don’t always perfectly test your coding skills, but real coding skills aren’t easy to test and are only part of what makes someone suitable. Ultimately, what matters is a.) can you recognize this is a game and b.) what trade offs do you make to win at the game, given your ability and character?

I think sort of easy, well chosen problems, based off personal experience are really the best for getting these answers from a candidate. Then again, it’s still not a silver bullet because it requires a really well prepared, interviewer who’s committed to giving the candidate a good experience and a fair shot at demonstrating what they can do.

I’ve had interviews where halfway I felt like the candidate was genuinely having fun, and others where we both knew this was the end for them. Like, the interview was so good at what it was designed for in either direction, yay or nay, both of us pretty much left agreeing with one another about how it went.

Re: Technical interview methods pale in comparison to playing Factorio with someone

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm D tier programmer who would easily land a programming job if factorio was the skill metric.

If you're actually D tier, and you're good at Factorio, why are you a D tier? You clearly have the mindset for problem-solving. What is holding you back?

There are very few off by one errors opportunities in factorio

Re: Technical interview methods pale in comparison to playing Factorio with someone

#309
post #58

We used this a couple times at Sandstorm back in the day. At the end of the interview the candidate would play Factorio cooperatively with the team for a while. I think it is remarkably effective at identifying the kinds of skills and personality traits that a software engineer actually needs to have in day-to-day work. You can find out if someone is self-directed, how fast they work, whether they produce clean desig…

A reminder that the goal of an interview process is not to be fair. This is not a sports event or a court case. Mostly your goals align with "being fair", but not always, and that's OK.

> A reminder that the goal of an interview process is not to be fair. This is not a sports event or a court case.

Given the power that companies have over individual workers, I'd say that a job interview should be treated as seriously as a court case. So yes, making it fair should be an explicit goal.

Re: Technical interview methods pale in comparison to playing Factorio with someone

#310
I remember giving, for a period of time, candidate a simple kids block programming game. The task was to put blocks together to escape ever more complicated labyrinths.

I stopped when I noticed candidates do worse at this game than actual 7 year old kids.

For example, a simple labirynth. Kids just give simple instructions (forward 3 blocks, turn right, forward 2 blocks, turn left, etc.). Candidates... try to figure out a complicated algorithm with a result that they run out of time producing nothing.

I wonder how much of this is effect of knowing you are being watched and your program analyzed and how much of this can be related to real world projects that developers just overcomplicate for no reason leading to worse results than just simple code you could throw in a fraction of the if you knew you are only judged for the effect and not for the code.

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