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Technical interview methods pale in comparison to playing Factorio with someone

erikmcclure.com

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Re: Technical interview methods pale in comparison to playing Factorio with someone

#111

Post by mywittyname »

MPSimmons wrote: post #54
Workaccount2 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm D tier programmer who would easily land a programming job if factorio was the skill metric.

If you're actually D tier, and you're good at Factorio, why are you a D tier? You clearly have the mindset for problem-solving. What is holding you back?

Software development as a career is a lot more than just learning, design, applying logic. We still have to manage projects at a people/organizational level, interact with team members with various backgrounds, understand what people are asking of you.

There's a lot to being a successful developer that is probably so easy for many individuals that they might not consider that a person might be IQ smart, but unable to handle such a task at a professional level.

I'm in a similar boat to the the GP: I do really well on logic tests and programming challenges, but I struggle with the the soft skills necessary to be a good team member.

Re: Technical interview methods pale in comparison to playing Factorio with someone

#112

Post by inetknght »

plank_time wrote: post #89
inetknght wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hire quickly and fire quickly This kind of mentality is not conducive to a well-functioning nation with people who have dependents and need stability.

Saying that it isn’t conducive to an entire nation is a bit of an over-dramatization, don’t you think? I think a generous severance makes up for that. Plus people would know what they are getting into, just like Netflix. If you don’t want the risk/return you don’t have to apply or accept a job there.

> Saying that it isn’t conducive to an entire nation is a bit of an over-dramatization, don’t you think?

I don't think so.

> I think a generous severance makes up for that.

That's your opinion. But what you think is generous isn't necessarily what others think is generous.

> Plus people would know what they are getting into, just like Netflix.

I disagree.

> If you don’t want the risk/return you don’t have to apply or accept a job there.

The risk/return needs to be clear though and hirefast/firefast isn't always clear.

Re: Technical interview methods pale in comparison to playing Factorio with someone

#113

Post by lghh »

lukas099 wrote: post #85
Toutouxc wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You only have to understand how to move your character using WASD, the concept of Inventory and pointing at different places on the ground with a cursor. Failing to understand this simple set of rules would disqualify a person from most jobs ever invented.

> You only have to understand how to move your character using WASD, the concept of Inventory and pointing at different places on the ground with a cursor. You make it sound so easy. Once I gave my PS4 controller to my dad to play a driving game. Even though he's a better driver than I am, it did not go well.

Using a controller for someone who has never used a controller for and mentally mapping the act of driving to it is probably more difficult then handing a mouse and keyboard to someone interviewing for a software development job.

Re: Technical interview methods pale in comparison to playing Factorio with someone

#114

Post by Toutouxc »

lukas099 wrote: post #85
Toutouxc wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You only have to understand how to move your character using WASD, the concept of Inventory and pointing at different places on the ground with a cursor. Failing to understand this simple set of rules would disqualify a person from most jobs ever invented.

> You only have to understand how to move your character using WASD, the concept of Inventory and pointing at different places on the ground with a cursor. You make it sound so easy. Once I gave my PS4 controller to my dad to play a driving game. Even though he's a better driver than I am, it did not go well.

Game controllers are different beasts altogether. It's always fun watching a hardcore PC gamer struggle with a DualShock (or the asymmetrical weird thing they use on Xbox) for the first time. I know what you mean, but Factorio is really much slower and much easier to pick up than a driving game on a controller. I'm not saying it's a great choice for a one-hour interview, but anyone should be able to do whatever they want in Factorio after a couple of hours.

Re: Technical interview methods pale in comparison to playing Factorio with someone

#115

Post by jkingsbery »

markus_zhang wrote: post #108

For anyone interested in Factorio as well as the technical notes of optimization. I highly recommend another game: Daison Sphere Program. https://store.steampowered.com/app/1366540/Dyson_Sphere_Prog... The leading programmer uses some sophisticated ways of optimization, including: - DOP instead of OOP - Leveraging GPU for parellely calculating certain stuffs - Using a GTX 660 Ti for development Here is a technical po…

Dyson Sphere Program is so good. I haven't played Factorio yet, but I think it has all the same sorts of things that this article described.

When I started playing DSP at first, I was just putting stuff anywhere. Then I realized that there are advantages in trying to make things modular in a way roughly analogous with code. At the same time though, it is very different than code, as the design is spacial, not as abstract as coding. Refactoring code is very different as a result.

Re: Technical interview methods pale in comparison to playing Factorio with someone

#116

Post by lghh »

kevincox wrote: post #12

I seriously think that "personal projects" are very underrated when it comes to hiring. If I see that someone has a lot of personal projects and has lots of time in Factorio they probably know how to code. I'm not sure you can rank them as Junior/Senior too effectively as these two things don't require much leadership, but you can basically skip the trivial phone interview questions at this point.

I doubt jobs for urban planners ask what cities you design in your free time. I doubt jobs for lawyers ask what cases you've argued in your free time. Why do we ask what software you've built in your free time for software engineering interviews?

Re: Technical interview methods pale in comparison to playing Factorio with someone

#117

Post by mywittyname »

kevincox wrote: post #12

I seriously think that "personal projects" are very underrated when it comes to hiring. If I see that someone has a lot of personal projects and has lots of time in Factorio they probably know how to code. I'm not sure you can rank them as Junior/Senior too effectively as these two things don't require much leadership, but you can basically skip the trivial phone interview questions at this point.

It's a great tool for junior developers. If someone hasn't had a dev job before, then a personal project -- even something simple like a twitter bot -- is almost a requirement in my eyes. IME, it is a strong signal for capability at that skill level.

Most higher-level devs don't build personal projects. I've worked with plenty of ridiculously capable people who work 9-5 and go home to their family. If anything, diligently keeping set hours is probably a stronger signal for a good senior candidate than personal projects are. A good senior candidate should be doing the thing they want to do already (thus, no need for side projects), or be capable of getting everything they need done for their job in 8 hours or less.

Re: Technical interview methods pale in comparison to playing Factorio with someone

#118

Post by kleinsch »

plank_time wrote: post #73
kentonv wrote: post #58

We used this a couple times at Sandstorm back in the day. At the end of the interview the candidate would play Factorio cooperatively with the team for a while. I think it is remarkably effective at identifying the kinds of skills and personality traits that a software engineer actually needs to have in day-to-day work. You can find out if someone is self-directed, how fast they work, whether they produce clean desig…

Hire quickly and fire quickly with a generous severance. That’s the only method that I’ve seen works effectively. Netflix does more with 2000 engineers that companies with 10-20x that. This also lets you take chances on engineers that weren’t “perfect” but had a lot of positives to offer.

The Netflix model makes a ton of sense, but doesn't apply to most other companies, bc Netflix is a unique case. They pay top of market, all cash. They have massive name recognition and obvious longevity. Probably most uniquely - they only hire senior people who have a track record of experience they can look at.

When you're a startup that nobody's heard of, half your engineers are going to be junior, and half your comp is stock options that will probably never be liquid, the offer doesn't make any sense. Are you just going to give offers to 20 random new college grads and coding bootcamp alums planning on firing the 50-75% that don't cut it? Good luck ever getting junior people to accept offers again. Do you think someone with 10+ years of experience is going to take a pay cut to take the job with a random startup with a decent chance of getting let go if the manager isn't feeling it after a few weeks?

With 15 years of experience and a family to provide for, there's no world where I'd consider that type of hiring/firing culture for anything other than a proven brand name with top of market comp, environment, and coworkers. Did an interview loop w/ Netflix a couple years ago, seems like an amazing place to work, ultimately went a different direction for non-culture related reasons.

Re: Technical interview methods pale in comparison to playing Factorio with someone

#119

Post by cloogshicer »

InitialLastName wrote: post #8
cloogshicer wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment assumes that both 'Factorio performance' and 'job performance' are measurable. That is questionable, in my opinion.

If someone is going to argue that Factorio is a useful tool for technical interviews, it's only reasonable to expect that they will present a visible correlation between in-game performance and real-life performance. Otherwise, how is this anything other than a novel just-so story?

How do you show correlation of two concepts that are inherently not measurable?

Do only statements that are measurable have value in your opinion?

Re: Technical interview methods pale in comparison to playing Factorio with someone

#120

Post by benlivengood »

grogenaut wrote: post #53

I actually bounced off from factorio becuase I'd rather solve it as a programming / optimization problem than run around im the game. I find this with a lot of management sim games.

Did you bounce before construction and logistic robots? That is basically the shift from traditional rts-style game to programming/optimization game.
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