“I am announcing my resignation from the FSF board” • Hacker News Board

Re: “I am announcing my resignation from the FSF board”

#61

Post by m000 » Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

inopinatus wrote: post #53

m000 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roman emperors brought people together by throwing other people to the lions. So I'd guess throwing RMS to the mob would also count as good leadership?

There's a reason that period is referred to as "decline and fall", and use of histrionic language such as "throwing to the mob" is exemplary of the idiocy surrounding this topic. People with behavioural disorders need neither be forgiven their transgressions, nor publicly berated in some infantile display of tyranny, but may/should instead be quietly levered out. Competent managers have been doing so for aeons, inclu…

> People with behavioural disorders need neither be forgiven their transgressions, nor publicly berated in some infantile display of tyranny, but may/should instead be quietly levered out.

I agree with that. I don't call for forgiving RMS, just for proportionate measures to contain his behaviour while not depriving him from his life's work. I believe we went from wrist slaps ("please do not handle your cards inside the conference venue") to mob lynching ("RMS should cease to exist").

Being a member, but not a president, of the FSF board seems like an appropriate middle road to me. And it's up to the rest of the board that reinstated him to keep him contained. In the meantime, anyone else is welcome to: Not invite RMS to their conference. Refuse him registration, if he tries. Give his photo to the security, if needed. That would be proportionate and warranted measures, until RMS provenly gets his act straight. And if he's not ok with that, he's still free to willfully resign.

Re: “I am announcing my resignation from the FSF board”

#62

Post by wayneftw » Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 1:54 PM UTC

curtisblaine wrote: post #49

ktpsns wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting site. I can't follow the reasoning. How do you think posts are prevented from reaching the front page? Do you claim they did reach front page but were then ... magically deleted? Or got more downvotes? Or where just [flagged] by the admins?

To answer your other question: stories are pushed off the front page either by users flagging them or admins manually removing them. In any case, I'm interested in stories with a lot of activity that get thrown off the front page. I often find them insightful and it would be a pity if they were lost.

Lots of people like me use a different site to see stories. Personally I use hckrnews.com and I'm never even aware that something fell off the front page.

Anyway, I think it's fine for admins to want us to give a topic a rest the day after a long and contentious thread. I don't think there's any kind of conspiracy here.

The only reason I use a different site to see the list of stories is that it's a stable list (the posts never get re-ordered) and overall just a better UX with filtering and infinite scrolling that actually works well.

Re: “I am announcing my resignation from the FSF board”

#63

Post by curtisblaine » Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 1:57 PM UTC

wayneftw wrote: post #62

curtisblaine wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To answer your other question: stories are pushed off the front page either by users flagging them or admins manually removing them. In any case, I'm interested in stories with a lot of activity that get thrown off the front page. I often find them insightful and it would be a pity if they were lost.

Lots of people like me use a different site to see stories. Personally I use hckrnews.com and I'm never even aware that something fell off the front page. Anyway, I think it's fine for admins to want us to give a topic a rest the day after a long and contentious thread. I don't think there's any kind of conspiracy here. The only reason I use a different site to see the list of stories is that it's a stable list (the…

> I don't think there's any kind of conspiracy here.

Me neither. I just find stories that are pushed off more interesting than average, especially in the comments section.

Re: “I am announcing my resignation from the FSF board”

#64

Post by geofft » Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 2:24 PM UTC

adenozine wrote: post #3

Good riddance? I'm tired of social culture spokespeople flogging technologists over the head Nobody can make a case that RMS is a swell guy, he's awful. Still, he's without a sliver of a doubt the single most influential activist for FOSS that there's ever been. Getting rid of polarization happens with one instance of forgiveness+rehabilitation at a time. You cant cancel your way to better culture.

> I'm tired of social culture spokespeople flogging technologists over the head

The FSF is a social culture organization. The board of directors of the FSF should not be pure technologists!

Here's what RMS has to say about it: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point....

Open source is essentially the same set of software (technology) as free software, but the FSF specifically advocates for "values" and "ethical imperatives" that open source advocates (at the time this article was written) did not see as important.

Replacing the board of the FSF with technologists who aren't focused on social/cultural aspects would turn it into the OSI of the mid-'90s. It would go against everything RMS believes.

Re: “I am announcing my resignation from the FSF board”

#65

Post by geofft » Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 2:31 PM UTC

vsdawn wrote: post #25

mantas wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is bringing people together - RMS-style "we're here to code" or progressive "everything is politics"?

Indeed "we're here to code" is the winner. Anything else just turns software into high school popularity contests, and there are thousands of other organizations who cater to that.

It's kind of incredible that the position of "we're here to code" is being attributed to RMS. He strenuously fought against that position for so long. It's why he objected to accepting the term "open source," even though the open source movement was producing free software and vice versa. It's why he designed GCC in a way to make it hard to add proprietary add-ons and rejected changes to make it more modular, a change that would have fit better with a "we're here to code" mindset (and, in the end, a change that left it vulnerable to competition from LLVM). It's why he cares so much about using the term "GNU/Linux" instead of "Linux" - if we're just here to code, who cares about naming? It's why he advocates strong copyleft, even though weaker licenses are also acceptable for free software.

See, for instance, https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-not-lgpl.html :

> Proprietary software developers, seeking to deny the free competition an important advantage, will try to convince authors not to contribute libraries to the GPL-covered collection. For example, they may appeal to the ego, promising “more users for this library” if we let them use the code in proprietary software products. Popularity is tempting, and it is easy for a library developer to rationalize the idea that boosting the popularity of that one library is what the community needs above all.

If the GNU philosophy were "we're here to code," then that argument would be convincing.

(And indeed there are and were many people taking a "we're here to code" view - DJB, for instance, who insisted that he didn't copyright his software and it didn't need a license and all talk of licensing was a distraction; people who put their software on GitHub without a license; people who use GitHub and other non-free services instead of taking a principled stand against them; etc. Stallman's activism stood in opposition to all of those views.)

Re: “I am announcing my resignation from the FSF board”

#66

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 2:35 PM UTC

mantas wrote: post #15

cehrlich wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RMS's role in the FSF was president, and now Member of the Board of Directors. Sure this requires some technical skills, but the main factor is leadership and the ability to bring people together. If anyone believes that RMS is fit for that role, that says a lot about the state of FOSS.

What is bringing people together - RMS-style "we're here to code" or progressive "everything is politics"?

> RMS-style "we're here to code" or progressive "everything is politics"

Richard Stallman is definitely an “everything is politics” type. If he ever was on the “we’re here to code” side, it was before he ran into the issues that led him to found the FSF, which is also an everything-is-politics organization.

You might prefer an aloof, privileged “we’re here to code” attitude, but projecting that onto Richard Stallman of all people is ludicrous.

Re: “I am announcing my resignation from the FSF board”

#67

Post by bm3719 » Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

adenozine wrote: post #3

Good riddance? I'm tired of social culture spokespeople flogging technologists over the head Nobody can make a case that RMS is a swell guy, he's awful. Still, he's without a sliver of a doubt the single most influential activist for FOSS that there's ever been. Getting rid of polarization happens with one instance of forgiveness+rehabilitation at a time. You cant cancel your way to better culture.

The past few years have made public a lot of the ideological baggage resident in these organizations. One possible positive thing about it is if you're thinking about contributing somewhere (financially or otherwise), it's easier to know who aligns better with your own personal philosophy.

Personally, I want to support an organization that serves a mission of Free Software and not mired in a bunch of social issues largely irrelevant to the cause. Some of those social issues might be important, but there are plenty of other organizations dedicated to such matters. So, I'm hopeful here that FSF has a chance to emerge from this more focused.

Re: “I am announcing my resignation from the FSF board”

#68

Post by user-the-name » Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 3:26 PM UTC

adenozine wrote: post #3

Good riddance? I'm tired of social culture spokespeople flogging technologists over the head Nobody can make a case that RMS is a swell guy, he's awful. Still, he's without a sliver of a doubt the single most influential activist for FOSS that there's ever been. Getting rid of polarization happens with one instance of forgiveness+rehabilitation at a time. You cant cancel your way to better culture.

In what possible, absurd world is having a sexual harrasser and abusive asshole on your board good for activism? How does that make any sense whatsoever? I really struggle to see this.

And. This is very important.

You give forgiveness after someone repents. After they take steps to right those they have wronged.

RMS has done none of that. Nothing. Zilch.

Taking him back is not "forgiveness". It is saying you do not care that he did something wrong.

Re: “I am announcing my resignation from the FSF board”

#69

Post by user-the-name » Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 3:27 PM UTC

thefz wrote: post #20

adenozine wrote: post #3

Good riddance? I'm tired of social culture spokespeople flogging technologists over the head Nobody can make a case that RMS is a swell guy, he's awful. Still, he's without a sliver of a doubt the single most influential activist for FOSS that there's ever been. Getting rid of polarization happens with one instance of forgiveness+rehabilitation at a time. You cant cancel your way to better culture.

> Nobody can make a case that RMS is a swell guy, he's awful. Still, he's without a sliver of a doubt the single most influential activist for FOSS that there's ever been. Amen to that. The sentiment around seems to ultimately be "I just don't like him because he might have made people uncomfortable, make him go away".

No, it is "he is abusive and a sexual harasser, make him go away".

That is a 100% reasonable and sane request that nobody should have a problem with.

Re: “I am announcing my resignation from the FSF board”

#70

Post by user-the-name » Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 3:28 PM UTC

rich_sasha wrote: post #31

I don’t know much more than superficial things about either FSF or RMS. I read the things he said, they sound reasonable, but very prone to misinterpretation. I won’t jump to his defence, I think not offending people even through their misunderstandings is a key skill in public speech. I do find it terrifying though how he is lynched for what is essentially rational and permissible speech in an ugly wrapper. I don’t…

Maybe your first step before speaking up should be to go deepen your knowledge of the situation beyond "superficial".