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Nationwide tells 13,000 staff to 'work anywhere'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Nationwide tells 13,000 staff to 'work anywhere'

#141

Post by dx034 »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #126
dx034 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. The company has a responsibility to set rules around when it's ok to call people. Especially for junior employees it's very hard to decline calls from their managers late in the evening. This has become a bigger issue as all communication is via phone or computer. Before, a lot was via personal interaction which just wasn't possible once you left the office. Now, no one really knows if someone is working…

Get a work phone/computer. Make it clear that you won't be available outside of business hours unless it's actually an emergency. My Dad resisted getting a mobile phone from his company from the mid eighties to the 2000's, on the principle that if they can't contact you, they'll figure it out themselves.

I wasn't talking about myself or really any senior person. But tell that to an intern or someone in their first job. And that's the problem with flexible working, it's often especially terrible for the most junior employees.

Re: Nationwide tells 13,000 staff to 'work anywhere'

#142

Post by dx034 »

raesene9 wrote: post #115
dx034 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only mid-sized towns, really. At least currently, very rural areas often lack the infrastructure to allow several people in the household to use video streaming (calls for the parents, youtube etc for kids) simultaneously. Starlink could change that, let's see. But unless you get at least 50mbit/s to every household, remote work won't really be possible for many. And sadly, many countries are far from having 50mbit/s…

So Anecdata for me. I live in the rural west highlands in a village of 200 people. I have 900/100 FTTP and 4G connectivity is available anywhere in the village on EE. With lack of contention you can get 100Mbps down stream over 4G I did have to pay for the FTTP install (FTTPoD) but when compared to the reduction in property prices it was easily offset. Even without extra money for FTTPoD, the village has FTTC and a c…

Ok maybe I should reconsider moving there, last time I visited (just before Covid hit) I had the impression that most smaller settlements have very poor connectivity (both mobile and from talks with people living there).

Re: Nationwide tells 13,000 staff to 'work anywhere'

#143

Post by pdimitar »

RHSeeger wrote: post #136
pdimitar wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Optimizing your lifelong estate purchase for a style of life that won't always be there seems crazy to me. Why?! Because you get to buy a cheaper estate -- is that the main reason? But you will not always work 9-5. You actually get to retire one day. Also there are the occasional long vacations when everybody is at home. Etc. The elephant in the room: if you can't tolerate your partner in the same flat/house for long…

> Why?! Because it costs a lot of money to buy a house with enough room for 2 separate offices. Paying for that if you have no reason to believe you'll ever need it would be well into the stupid range for most people.

You have a lot of reasons to believe you'll need the more space -- and I enumerated a few.

Ignoring those might be the venturing into the irrational range that you mentioned.

Re: Nationwide tells 13,000 staff to 'work anywhere'

#144

Post by londons_explore »

411111111111111 wrote: post #140
londons_explore wrote: post #137

I bet they'll walk back this advice when employees start moving outside the UK and start living across the world, and suddenly Nationwide has the laws and bureaucracies of hundreds of countries to deal with... "Hi HR, you need to pay be the 8 years maternity pay you owe me because I live in Svalbard and the local laws require all employers pay that".

That would be an issue, but thankfully isn't necessarily the case. you're usually bound by the locality where the contract is signed, so you dont suddenly gain rights just by moving abroad until the employer actually creates a new contract. for that to happen, the employer would have to create a legal entity in that legal region. do note however, that some nations dont allow you to work while on their soil, unless yo…

A nation who has laws as you suggest opens their population up to remote slave labor. Ie. Some foreign company encourages citizens to work for less than minimum wage, paying no employment taxes, in conditions that would otherwise be illegal. That in turn also hurts local employers competing for the same labor pool.

Therefore I believe all nations will decide that work done on their soil must follow their employment laws, even if done for a foreign company.

There is precident for that interpretation pre-pandemic in many western countries.

Re: Nationwide tells 13,000 staff to 'work anywhere'

#145

Post by endymi0n »

dbetteridge wrote: post #105
endymi0n wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there‘s truth to that, it doesn‘t bring home my own issue with WFH: It might be okay to much better for individual contributors, but it‘s harsh for me as a manager. Zoom (fatigue) meetings all day, staring at the screen instead of real people and any form of "managing by walking around" and watercooler chats are gone. This might not make a difference if my job was a corporate mess and sucked before already, but…

To ask the pointed question, How do the employees you manage feel about the change? Because for me the concept of managers 'just walking around' gives me that itchy feeling on the back of my neck. And at the end of the day if the employees who write code/produce output are doing that efficiently that is the goal right.

Good one, actually most of my employees feel the same way.

You might have a bad case of a micromanager there, but here‘s my definition:

> Management by walking around emphasizes the importance of interpersonal contact, open appreciation, and recognition. It is one of the most important ways to build civility and performance in the workplace.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318016170_Managing_...

Your definition of success might be technically right, but doesn‘t resonate with me.

What good does it do if some code works but the employees behind that aren‘t happy, don‘t feel valued and we can‘t celebrate success together?

Re: Nationwide tells 13,000 staff to 'work anywhere'

#146

Post by TeMPOraL »

pdimitar wrote: post #133
TeMPOraL wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a mixed blessing. On the one hand, you're always with your family. On the other hand, you're always with your family . Fact of life is, many relationships have trouble finding balance between "me time" and "us time". Going to work is, for many, a way to catch a break from their home - with perfect plausible deniability, since it's socially approved and demanded externally. Some people don't need it. I had a co-w…

Optimizing your lifelong estate purchase for a style of life that won't always be there seems crazy to me. Why?! Because you get to buy a cheaper estate -- is that the main reason? But you will not always work 9-5. You actually get to retire one day. Also there are the occasional long vacations when everybody is at home. Etc. The elephant in the room: if you can't tolerate your partner in the same flat/house for long…

> Optimizing your lifelong estate purchase for a style of life that won't always be there seems crazy to me. Why?! Because you get to buy a cheaper estate -- is that the main reason? But you will not always work 9-5. You actually get to retire one day. Also there are the occasional long vacations when everybody is at home. Etc.

For most 20-30yo, the 9-5 lifestyle is absolutely expected to be there for the next 30 years. Vacations are often handled by traveling, visiting extended family, etc. There normally are many options available. And by the time retirement comes, children will have moved out, or perhaps the parents will have sold the flat, or left it to the children, and moved out elsewhere. I don't think there is something as a "lifelong estate purchase" these days in the cities. Not when you're in your thirties.

> The elephant in the room: if you can't tolerate your partner in the same flat/house for longer periods of time then IMO you shouldn't marry them so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Easy to say :). But some people only discover that quite late - once some unpredictable circumstances (like job loss, or a global pandemic) force them to actually stay in the same flat for long periods of time. Most working-age adults don't experience that ordinarily (and I think every couple expects they'll work such issues out by the time they get to retire).

> But what you describe just seems... more like a good roommates' arrangement / contract, and not an actual relationship?

Relationships are complex, and every one is different. They get even more complex if extended family gets involved, or when children appear. And sudden events like a global pandemic have a way of revealing previously unseen cracks in the foundations. If people were aware of all this up front, humanity would have died out centuries ago :).

Re: Nationwide tells 13,000 staff to 'work anywhere'

#147

Post by sensitive-ears »

411111111111111 wrote: post #140
londons_explore wrote: post #137

I bet they'll walk back this advice when employees start moving outside the UK and start living across the world, and suddenly Nationwide has the laws and bureaucracies of hundreds of countries to deal with... "Hi HR, you need to pay be the 8 years maternity pay you owe me because I live in Svalbard and the local laws require all employers pay that".

That would be an issue, but thankfully isn't necessarily the case. you're usually bound by the locality where the contract is signed, so you dont suddenly gain rights just by moving abroad until the employer actually creates a new contract. for that to happen, the employer would have to create a legal entity in that legal region. do note however, that some nations dont allow you to work while on their soil, unless yo…

This may or may not be true in all locales, but one issue described to me is that having a legal entity in one jurisdiction with employees in another jurisdiction can expose the company to be also tax liable in the workers jurisdiction

Re: Nationwide tells 13,000 staff to 'work anywhere'

#148

Post by TeMPOraL »

pdimitar wrote: post #143
RHSeeger wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why?! Because it costs a lot of money to buy a house with enough room for 2 separate offices. Paying for that if you have no reason to believe you'll ever need it would be well into the stupid range for most people.

You have a lot of reasons to believe you'll need the more space -- and I enumerated a few. Ignoring those might be the venturing into the irrational range that you mentioned.

You need a place to live now. You can always sell it later - perhaps at a profit, perhaps at a loss - but a place to live optimized for your current conditions will let you save up money to buy a better place later, that will be optimized for your future conditions.

Re: Nationwide tells 13,000 staff to 'work anywhere'

#149

Post by [deleted] »

endymi0n wrote: post #53
el_benhameen wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I “worked from home” for several years before covid, but I never worked exclusively at home until covid. I’d usually spend a few hours of a few days a week at a coffee shop, library or park, and not being able to do that during covid has definitely made remote work feel more isolating.

While there‘s truth to that, it doesn‘t bring home my own issue with WFH: It might be okay to much better for individual contributors, but it‘s harsh for me as a manager. Zoom (fatigue) meetings all day, staring at the screen instead of real people and any form of "managing by walking around" and watercooler chats are gone. This might not make a difference if my job was a corporate mess and sucked before already, but…

[deleted]

Re: Nationwide tells 13,000 staff to 'work anywhere'

#150

Post by prepend »

411111111111111 wrote: post #140
londons_explore wrote: post #137

I bet they'll walk back this advice when employees start moving outside the UK and start living across the world, and suddenly Nationwide has the laws and bureaucracies of hundreds of countries to deal with... "Hi HR, you need to pay be the 8 years maternity pay you owe me because I live in Svalbard and the local laws require all employers pay that".

That would be an issue, but thankfully isn't necessarily the case. you're usually bound by the locality where the contract is signed, so you dont suddenly gain rights just by moving abroad until the employer actually creates a new contract. for that to happen, the employer would have to create a legal entity in that legal region. do note however, that some nations dont allow you to work while on their soil, unless yo…

This is not true in the US as state laws apply for where the employee conducts the work, not the location of the employer.

The employer will need to withhold taxes for the state of the employee as well.

This is frequently hard to detect with everyone teleworking, but rest assured that HR is getting a call if someone works in a state with maternity leave laws requiring it.

While not generally applicable for digital jobs that telework, I think the most obvious would be minimum wage. If I live in Seattle and telework to a job in Alabama that pays only $11, that’s a liability for the employer.

Of course, I think that if an employee was teleworking from a location without approval that’s likely grounds for dismissal.

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