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Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

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Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#31
post #2

As a related aside, split pieces of wood--so the holder could check and see the pieces matched up--were also used as an anti-fraud device ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick ). Apparently, these pieces of wood are were we get the term "stock." In case you ever wondered why the word for an ownership share is the same word as "stick, trunk, block of wood, or post" (Germanic / Dutch / Old English), this is appar…

So these non-fungible blocks that proved you had a stake... could you maybe trace back the transaction history for a piece of property using some kind of chain of these blocks?

[deleted]

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#32
"The Palace of Westminster, the medieval royal palace used as the home of the British parliament, was largely destroyed by fire on 16 October 1834.

The blaze was caused by the burning of small wooden tally sticks which had been used as part of the accounting procedures of the Exchequer until 1826. The sticks were disposed of carelessly in the two furnaces under the House of Lords, which caused a chimney fire in the two flues that ran under the floor of the Lords' chamber and up through the walls."

Since medieval times the Exchequer had used tally sticks, pieces of carved, notched wood, normally willow, as part of their accounting procedures.

The parliamentary historian Caroline Shenton has described the tally sticks as "roughly as long as the span of an index finger and thumb".

These sticks were split in two so that the two sides to an agreement had a record of the situation. Once the purpose of each tally had come to an end, they were routinely destroyed.By the end of the eighteenth century the usefulness of the tally system had likewise come to an end, and a 1782 Act of Parliament stated that all records should be on paper, not tallies.

The novelist Charles Dickens, in a speech to the Administrative Reform Association, described the retention of the tallies for so long as an "obstinate adherence to an obsolete custom"; he also mocked the bureaucratic steps needed to implement change from wood to paper. He said that "all the red tape in the country grew redder at the bare mention of this bold and original conception."

By the time the replacement process had finished there were two cart-loads of old tally sticks awaiting disposal"

Burning of Parliament

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_Parliament

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#33

"The Palace of Westminster, the medieval royal palace used as the home of the British parliament, was largely destroyed by fire on 16 October 1834. The blaze was caused by the burning of small wooden tally sticks which had been used as part of the accounting procedures of the Exchequer until 1826. The sticks were disposed of carelessly in the two furnaces under the House of Lords, which caused a chimney fire in the t…

[deleted]

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#34

“Device” here is a clickbait. Device means some separate entity which prevents fraud, but these’s no such device. It’s akin saying modern money printers use anti-fraud devices (watermarks).

I appreciate your wariness of headlines. Device is used in this way often though.

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But proving you have a stake doesn't take that much work, right?

to prove that, you had to rub the block as fast as possible. this heat generated was then used to heat the houses

The original "block chain"

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#36

"The Palace of Westminster, the medieval royal palace used as the home of the British parliament, was largely destroyed by fire on 16 October 1834. The blaze was caused by the burning of small wooden tally sticks which had been used as part of the accounting procedures of the Exchequer until 1826. The sticks were disposed of carelessly in the two furnaces under the House of Lords, which caused a chimney fire in the t…

This is what happens when you don’t dispose of your records correctly.

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#37

“Device” here is a clickbait. Device means some separate entity which prevents fraud, but these’s no such device. It’s akin saying modern money printers use anti-fraud devices (watermarks).

1. a thing made or adapted for a particular purpose, especially a piece of mechanical or electronic equipment. "a measuring device"

2. a plan, method, or trick with a particular aim.

Words often have more than one meaning.

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#38
post #22
post #2

As a related aside, split pieces of wood--so the holder could check and see the pieces matched up--were also used as an anti-fraud device ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick ). Apparently, these pieces of wood are were we get the term "stock." In case you ever wondered why the word for an ownership share is the same word as "stick, trunk, block of wood, or post" (Germanic / Dutch / Old English), this is appar…

Is the phrase,"get short end of the stick" originate from this?

This is a (modern, mistaken) conjoining of two similar phrases

- drawing the short stick (where you hold five sticks / matches, in your hand one of which is cut short but no one can tell cos they are held in someone's hand)

- Grabbing the shitty end of the stick. Which seems fairly obvious if a stick was used for any clearing out style work.

(there seems to be no obvious "short end" of a stick)

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#39
post #9
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't answer the question, because the point of the two halves is that they are independently recording the contract. If we use a split stick to record how much money you owe me, and I simply add more marks to mine, to pretend you owe me more, it's obvious that I'm cheating. But if I simply split a brand-new stick and add marks on it, then our sticks won't match up at all. How will a court know which is the or…

You could split wood more than 2 ways, then register one of the pieces. Or a system of splitting multiple pieces of wood, leaving some for registration. No idea if this is what anyone has done. Signing makes sense.

Splitting more tallies from one stick was done on certain occasions, especially if intentional fraud was a concern.

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

to prove that, you had to rub the block as fast as possible. this heat generated was then used to heat the houses

The original "block chain"

Yes, and the people using it were the original "block heads" :)
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