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The Decline and Fall of the Latin Neuter

dannybate.com

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Re: The Decline and Fall of the Latin Neuter

#32
post #30
post #5

Surprised the article didn't mention the Spanish definite article lo , which can be paired with a masculine adjective to form a nominal phrase meaning the abstract notion of the adjective: lo mismo - the same [thing], lo bueno - the good, that which is good. My understanding is this derives from the Latin neuter as well. Edit: why on earth is this being downvoted? Seriously confused - is something here wrong or contr…

I suspect it's because it struck some as the "but what about" that is a trope here. The "i can't believe they didn't mention this thing I know" sorta shtick that us tech ppl love to do :)

Interesting. I didn't mean it as a gotcha, just another example of the phenomenon under discussion. Maybe the "surprised the article didn't mention" formulation is not the way to go.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the Latin Neuter

#33

>The neuter gender is very old indeed, arguably older than the other two genders. Through the systematic comparison of ancient languages, we believe that Proto-Indo-European, in its oldest reconstructable state, had only two gender-like categories for its nouns: animate and inanimate (that is, for moving and not-moving things). It was the inanimate that became the neuter gender in its descendant languages, while the…

I found this passage really provocative as well! It got me wondering what sort of conceptualization and distinction these cultures and early humans had around gender when they didn't see gender as the original way to split themselves.

It got me thinking about what sort of language a descendent of bonobos might develop, and even whether proto humans conceived of gender in a more fluid way during co-evolution of language and our biology that allowed for language. Wondering if there's anything here like the original sort of QWERTY entrenchment

Re: The Decline and Fall of the Latin Neuter

#34

One thing that fascinates me are latin 1st declension masculine occupational nouns: pirata, nauta, poeta... Both pirata and poeta at least, take "il" in italian. Nauta it seems, did not survive.

Is there a good explanation for how these came to develop?

I've heard it explained by saying that "they're typically men's spheres" as rationale from my brief exposure to the language, but this seems deeply unsatisfying for a variety of reasons - id est, in comparison to something along the lines of loanword/archaism/evolution of root/evolution of grammatic gender.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the Latin Neuter

#35

One thing that fascinates me are latin 1st declension masculine occupational nouns: pirata, nauta, poeta... Both pirata and poeta at least, take "il" in italian. Nauta it seems, did not survive.

Is there a good explanation for how these came to develop? I've heard it explained by saying that "they're typically men's spheres" as rationale from my brief exposure to the language, but this seems deeply unsatisfying for a variety of reasons - id est, in comparison to something along the lines of loanword/archaism/evolution of root/evolution of grammatic gender.

I was hoping someone here would be able to explain it to me!

Re: The Decline and Fall of the Latin Neuter

#36
post #9

English native speaker here (en_GB!) However, I have studied Latin, both classical: "Cicero sic in omnibus, Brutus aderat." and medieval: Erasmus, as he toddled around Europe, drank nearly as much red wine as I do. I've also failed French and German O levels (old UK exam at age 15.) So, Latin generally had M, F and N. Modern French (Romance language du jour) ostensibly has M and F. Modern Germanic languages have ....…

> The article notes that proto-indo-european only had animate and inanimate and that is not the same as gender. Animate here is "alive". A human and a tree are animate but a rock is inanimate. Rocks (outside of Terry Pratchett books do not procreate).

Baseless speculation: I think I can see how gender might develop out of this paradigm. Far as I remember, there's the sky father and earth mother, and the sky impregnates the earth to create life. The animate/active is associated with the masculine, and the inanimate/passive with the feminine.

I've read a little about alchemy and the various ways one might determine the elemental nature of a thing, and this process was much more involved than one might expect, leading to a variety of interesting conclusions. I can imagine something similar behind the genders of things, at least at the beginning.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the Latin Neuter

#37
post #32
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect it's because it struck some as the "but what about" that is a trope here. The "i can't believe they didn't mention this thing I know" sorta shtick that us tech ppl love to do :)

Interesting. I didn't mean it as a gotcha, just another example of the phenomenon under discussion. Maybe the "surprised the article didn't mention" formulation is not the way to go.

Oh totally, i didn't read it as that either, but when i went looking (bc you mentioned), i immediately noticed it :)

I agree that avoiding "i am surprised" generally works well for me, as i find ppl can be prickly toward a subtle one-ups-manship vibe. Personally, I often try to find an and-yes angle before adding something I know (esp negating), and it seems like it works alright :)

Anyhow, I appreciate how humble and thoughtful you seem, in making sense of this wierd "up/down vote" system we're compelled to sift meaning from in digital spaces heh

Re: The Decline and Fall of the Latin Neuter

#38
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the article is about Latin?

Touché :) I know Russian isn't a Romance language, but it is Indo-European in origin, and I was wondering if maybe there was some parallel process that ended differently there. But I suppose you're right, it's reasonably outside the scope of this article.

> I know Russian isn't a Romance language, but it is Indo-European in origin, and I was wondering if maybe there was some parallel process that ended differently there.

The phenomenon this article talks about seems specific to Latin:

> To trace the decline of the neuter, we can begin with a theoretical principle: the process must have begun early, at a time when Latin was still a unified language. If we do not accept this as a first premise, it becomes very difficult to explain why the neuter is absent from the whole Romance family – why its decline was so uniform. This is not to say that the neuter had died completely when Romance languages first emerged, only that the seeds had already been sown and the die already cast.

Though I suppose your observation that Russian (and I think other Indo-European languages) still have the neuter gender kinda confirms that.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the Latin Neuter

#39

>The neuter gender is very old indeed, arguably older than the other two genders. Through the systematic comparison of ancient languages, we believe that Proto-Indo-European, in its oldest reconstructable state, had only two gender-like categories for its nouns: animate and inanimate (that is, for moving and not-moving things). It was the inanimate that became the neuter gender in its descendant languages, while the…

Farsi has hints of this. I don't think any linguist would argue that Farsi is a gendered language (it does not even have gendered pronouns), but there are two instances where one could argue remnants of an animate/inanimate gender system remains:

1. Farsi has two suffixes that make a noun plural (I am going to write things semi-phonetically): huh and un. Huh can be used for absolutely everything. Un can only be used for living things, e.g.: derakht-un (trees), daneshamouz-un (students), baradar-un (brothers, and its similarity to brethren has caught my eye).

2. You can use third person singular verb conjugation for third person plural subjects, but only if the subject is non-living.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the Latin Neuter

#40

>The neuter gender is very old indeed, arguably older than the other two genders. Through the systematic comparison of ancient languages, we believe that Proto-Indo-European, in its oldest reconstructable state, had only two gender-like categories for its nouns: animate and inanimate (that is, for moving and not-moving things). It was the inanimate that became the neuter gender in its descendant languages, while the…

Yes, the expressions “moving” – “not-moving” are rather misleading.

The actual distinction according to this theory (or to my favourite flavour of this theory) was: “able to act willfully” – “unable to act willfully”. The distinction was quite logical. Cp.:

(A) “Susan runs down the hill.”

(B) “Water runs down the hill.”

(C) “Susan drinks water.”

A speaker of Proto-Indo-European might have said, learning English: “This is strange – as if these were somehow the same acts or events. ‘Susan runs’, OK, but water does not run – it is dragged down. It does not act, something happens to it.” (And then the PIE-speaker might have speculated that anglophone people have an animistic worldview or so.)

In PIE the subject of a sentence seems to have denoted an actual agens; and there seems to have been a class of nouns for things unable to act willfully, hence unable to be the subject. So that the subject in (A) and (C) would have been a subject in the nominative, denoting an agens, whereas in (B) “water” would not have been seen as subject; the sentence would have been constructed differently and “water” would have been put in the same case as “water” in (C).

Because all over the old IE languages, neuter nouns have the same form for the nominative and the accusative, and it seems to have been rather the form for the accusative: Cp.

Latin masc. nom. sg. ‑us

Latin masc. acc. sg. ‑um

Latin neutr. nom. sg. ‑um

Latin neutr. acc. sg. ‑um

There is further evidence, too.

In principle, the distinction was quite logical, but its application is difficult and gets easily messed up over time until the old semantic distinction has become a mere formal one.

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