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Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

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Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#81

Post by orra »

nyolfen wrote: post #31
quineoa wrote: post #10

Comments in this thread represent what’s wrong with the industry. The article references sexual harassment, the commenters care about market share. Did you know it’s important to hold people accountable more, the more power they have? It’s one thing if you disagree, but making it about “winners” and “losers” and not about victims is how we ended up creating toxic workplaces.

the sexual harassment was asking women at conferences on dates

You're downplaying it entirely. He has a track record of handing out sexualized 'pleasure cards' at professional conferences.

Women at MIT were warned away from him, told to keep plants to ward him off.

And one of the most troubling things he has done is psychological manipulation. Many jurisdictions rightly recognise as domestic abuse. In particular, he told one woman he would kill himself if she didn't date him.

Depressed people should seek treatment. Being depressed doesn't excuse manipulation.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#83

Post by orra »

quineoa wrote: post #10

Comments in this thread represent what’s wrong with the industry. The article references sexual harassment, the commenters care about market share. Did you know it’s important to hold people accountable more, the more power they have? It’s one thing if you disagree, but making it about “winners” and “losers” and not about victims is how we ended up creating toxic workplaces.

> Comments in this thread represent what’s wrong with the industry.

It's incredibly troubling. It shows that a hell of a lot of men will excuse incredibly shitty behaviour, because they think 'they're next'.

Not unless they're also being incredibly shitty. Nobody's getting 'cancelled' for bad social skills.

I am pleasantly surprised by the number of people speaking out against harassment these days. The open letter has a lot of signatories, many prominent figures. Sadly, of course, the open letter is necessary.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#85

Post by [deleted] »

krapp wrote: post #58
ipnon wrote: post #44

I believe there is a significant chilling effect in regards to speaking out in the defense of Richard Stallman, a man who has never been convicted of a crime, and who in response to the allegations in the open letter has said things such as: "We know that Giuffre was being coerced into sex – by Epstein. She was being harmed," "Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to understand how sex with a c…

>I believe there is a significant chilling effect in regards to speaking out in the defense of Richard Stallman Sorry? What chilling effect? People are coming out of the woodwork to defend him. Most of the comments on most threads on Hacker News defend him. I can't think of anyone more vigorously and vociferously defended by the tech community except maybe Aaron Swartz. If there's any chilling effect at all, it's in…

[deleted]

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#86

Post by geofft »

wmf wrote: post #79
geofft wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoting from their website, "The FSF is a charity with a worldwide mission to advance software freedom." The question for the FSF Board isn't whether Stallman deserves to be punished, or anything - they're not a court of law. The question for the FSF Board is whether adding Stallman to the board accomplishes their mission of advancing software freedom. The FSF is not the Stallman Foundation (the way that there's a Ga…

In practice the FSF is the Stallman Foundation.

It hasn't been since at least fall 2019, when he stepped down. He hasn't been involved (at least on paper!) for over a year now, and the FSF has presumably been functioning between then and last Saturday.

It hasn't been since 2004, when the FSF staff unionized to protect themselves from Stallman (https://twitter.com/paulnivin/status/1374532930400227328).

It hasn't been since whenever Stallman's rider started including explicit instructions that his speaking fees should be sent to his personal mailing address and made out to his personal bank account, not the FSF treasury, not even to his personal assistant employed by the FSF. https://github.com/ddol/rre-rms/blob/master/rider.txt#L725-L...

And maybe it is in practice despite all that, but should it be? That's not their mission statement, and I think, for instance, that very few software authors would have been willing to say "or, at your option, any later version published by the Stallman Foundation" - let alone transfer their copyrights to the Stallman Foundation. Free software developers including myself entrusted the FSF with the ability to control our work precisely because the FSF was not just one guy, it was an organization that claimed to represent the entire free software movement.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#87

Post by dragonwriter »

mark_l_watson wrote: post #30

As a very liberal person, I have to say that I am disgusted by cancel culture. Disgusted. This is so harmful to society, and is a dark path that the left has taken in my country. To put it plainly, my political party has turned into whinny little people. People should lose their jobs over things like sexual or any type of harassment but when I read Stallman's actual comments last year, I thought that it was very clea…

> As a very liberal person, I have to say that I am disgusted by cancel culture.

Are you using the non-American and leftist American definition of “liberal” (center-to-center-right capitalist) or the American center-right-to-right definition of “liberal” (anything left of the center-right) when you say “very liberal”?

> when I read Stallman's actual comments last year, I thought that it was very clear that he was only defending his friend, who was dead and couldn't defend himself.

A lot of the comments and actions at issue, including the separate general endorsement of “voluntary” child sex, had nothing to do with Minsky.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#88

Post by yellowapple »

orra wrote: post #38
yellowapple wrote: post #15

Glad to see that Mozilla refuses to tolerate neurodiversity. Socially awkward people deserve to be permanently ostracized from society, am I right? I'm proud to use a web browser developed by people who offer no quarter to autists, schizos, and the rest of them loonies; if they wanted inclusion, they should just stop being mentally unwell - it's all in their heads, after all! Thank you, Mitchell Baker, very cool. (/s…

This is ableist nonsense. First, nobody is ostracizing Stallman for being socially awkward. He is being ostracized for sexual harassment. Second, neurodiversity and social awkwardness don't excuse you being an asshole, from being a bully, or from being a danger. I think most people, whether neurodiverse or not, understand that. Finally, does he have an autism diagnosis? Just like with the recent tragic Atlanta shooti…

> He is being ostracized for sexual harassment.

Being a bit of a weirdo - which is really the only allegation so far that has had any real merit, to my knowledge - is not sexual harassment. Claiming otherwise does a massive disservice both to neuroatypical people and to actual victims of sexual harassment.

> Finally, does he have an autism diagnosis?

Does he need one? This is the US we're talking about; considering how frequently and harshly even the slightest mental irregularity gets ostracized in this country - as exemplified in this very thread - I wouldn't blame him for being undiagnosed, whether due to not knowing there's something different about himself in the first place or due to actively wanting to avoid the stigma such a diagnosis would carry.

> The responsible thing to do, if Stallman were autistic, would be to seek treatment for autism.

Right, I'm sure there's some pill he can take, right? Oooh, or maybe hypnotherapy! Or lobotomies! Or electroshock therapy!

Imagine calling me ableist in the same breath used to insist that neuroatypical people should submit themselves to some sort of conversion therapy if they want to be accepted in society.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#89

Post by datavirtue »

orra wrote: post #22
datavirtue wrote: post #11

What did Stallman do specifically? Why is it always so hard to find out what someone actually said or did when they are being cancelled?

Stallman seems to have a history of being manipulative and sexually harassing women. https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-appendix... He also has some troubling views that at best make him an inappropriate spokesperson. https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix

I read through as many specific quotes as I could find and it all looked like your typical tenured male professor running his mouth. Is Stallman kind of creepy? I think so. Is it a good idea to explore the philosophical points of under age sex in an academic setting or in public? No, but thank the gods you are allowed to...sort of. Has he DONE anything wrong? If so, someone should notify the police.

That blog post calling for his removal was way overblown and quite childish.

I worked in a college setting for years and tenured professors were found in possession of pornography on school grounds and on school equipment. We in tech, who discovered and reported it,thought it was a big deal. Academic freedom policy and union protection gave it the big shrug. That didn't protect their reputation but it did protect their freedom.

I came to hold dear the notion of academic and intellectual freedom from my years working there. Web filtering and monitoring were completely off the table. Not because it might protect some creepy dudes from exposure but because it protects us all in ways that most people don't even fathom.

I predict that the author of that post will deeply regret their actions one day when they grow up.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#90

Post by belorn »

I strongly support the concept and the practical benefits of both Firefox and Tor, but I would never have anything to do with the two organizations behind the software. How many people in the Tor project leadership directly supported or did not directly oppose the death threats, home invasion, cyber bullying, and extra-judicial punishment involving Jacob Appelbaum?

Free software is built on volunteers doing what is often a thankless job, and all this drama is going to make a lot of people to consider doing something else than contributing.

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