Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The fragility of the CPC and its fear in being portrayed in any negative light knows no limits. The fragility of American imperialism and its fear in being portrayed in any negative light knows no limits. That’s why they focus on creating propaganda like this. I’ve liked some Field of Vision stuff before (shining a light on content moderation practices on Silicon Valley social media platforms), yet this feels part…
> The fragility of American imperialism and its fear in being portrayed in any negative light knows no limits. This is 100% unarguably, demonstrably false. Americans write books critical about American imperialism ( https://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Cruise-Secret-History-Empire... ), we make (and fund with public broadcasting money!) documentaries that criticize both the effectiveness and wisdom of our own military eff…
'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]
241–250 of 289 posts
Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]
#242Earlier quoted context omitted.
> To keep this in context, the current Hong Kong SAR government is democratically elected[6] according to the provisions of an international treaty signed by the PRC and the UK which took effect in 1997 No, this's misinformation. The HK government isn't democratically elected. The CEO of the HK government is selected by a committee appointed by the CCP. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_Committee_(Hong_Kong)…
Many countries, including the US and UK, have indirect elections for high offices. Are they also non-democratic? Personally, my answer to that question is yes, but I’m willing to apply principles equally. Again, this is beside the point of what I was asking, as I’m not trying to get into an ideological debate.
Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]
#243This is the kind of content I'd like to see less of on Hacker News. > Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic. There are other platforms (Reddit) where there's plenty of discussion around topics like this. Not to say that HN…
> Please don't complain that a submission is inappropriate. If a story is spam or off-topic, flag it. Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead. If you flag, please don't also comment that you did.
So please, just flag and move on next time.
Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]
#244anyone else have family/friends working/born and raised in hk and have zero care about the "protests" ? yeah most people go about their lives while the media bread and circus blasted this to western audiences when it was trendy. extremely amusing to watch internet nobodies absolutely nuke reddit with hk posts when chances are they have no idea how to locate hk on a map
Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]
#245The CPC propaganda department has ordered its local media to stagger the Oscars this year and downplay the event because this documentary short was nominated. https://variety.com/2021/film/asia/china-tells-media-stagger... I watched it recently and thought it didn't go nearly far enough in highlighting the abuses by the HK police, and even glossed over or omitted some very important events that triggered the continue…
> The fragility of the CPC and its fear in being portrayed in any negative light knows no limits. That's because they have single party system. Eventually they'll figure out that splitting into two parties and exchanging highest power between the two every few years while still colectively controlling everything of value is way more resilient system. Then they will be able to let themselves to be hated because half o…
My impression is that one succeeds in Chinese public life by successfully innovating in pursuit of received (and perhaps arbitrary) goals, such that being good at the means eventually allows you to have input on what the appropriate ends may be, and this is why many Chinese VIPs come from an engineering background. But success in civil administration or development of infrastructure is built upon getting results in response to specific conditions rather than the articulation or application of general principles, and is judged by administrative peers rather than the public.
I don't feel one can understand China in terms of just capitalism v communism both because they have a sort of mixed economy that that is hypersocialistic in some respects and hypercapitalistic in others, and because of the different philosophical currents in Chinese culture like the hierarchism of Confucianism, the legalism of Mencius, and the oddness of Taoism, which can seem like pure solipsism or all encompassing systems theory. But it does seem to me that once the emergence of distinct factions would be regarded as an existential problem to be resolved as urgently as possible through some kind of intra-party showdown rather institutionalized duopoly. Harmonious stability has been a strong cultural more there for ~2000 years, so very dynamic internal politics would risk a sort of national introversion that would weaken China with respect to the rest of the world.
Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]
#246[flagged]
Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]
#247Earlier quoted context omitted.
> while still colectively controlling everything of value If this post is meant as a whataboutist critique of US democracy then this line gives it away as over the top conspiracy theory. Who exactly is controlling everything of value in this theory?
I read this similarly. In the US, there are lots of things that the government doesn't control, and even for things the government does control the federal, state and local governments can be controlled by different parties that have conflicting priorities. Also, the way that the political parties are structured in the US is very different, where there are national party organizations, but also local party organizati…
The American Supreme Court can basically make up interpretations on essentially whatever, and it has and will so long as the Democratic and Republican party agree on it.
China also has local CCP organizations, and they have a significant level of influence on the national party (and vice-versa), but ultimately just like in the US the DNC and RNC chair can basically make up whatever arcane rules for nomination and get an agreeable candidate.
Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]
#248Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't believe intentions matter all that much. Certainly not more than than the outcomes. Stumbling upon a pragmatic solution while pursuing idealistic goals doesn't sanctify the solution. And introducing a solution just for pragmatic reasons witout any pretense of idealism doesn't vilify it. > But policy does change and decade over decade That's a very low bar. It happens in single party systems as well. China wen…
> "China went from communism into capitalism with single party system, without revolution." I'm not sure Deng Xiaoping would agree with this framing, though he was eventually able to shift things after Mao. There was a lot of violence during the cultural revolution. Deng reversed a lot of this, but it was in a revolutionary context (right after the cultural revolution). "And introducing a solution just for pragmatic…
Deng reforms came 12 years after cultural revolution. After the death of Mao. And his coming to power and his reforms were realized as internal party affair, without engaging Chinese population in any form of novel revolutionary activity. And the spirit of those reforms directly contradicted last revolution. To the point of admitting mistakes of this revolution and its leader.
> I agree that it doesn't necessarily vilify it (pragmatism is good), but if it's done only as an illusion/lie to maintain authoritarian control by one group then that is villainous.
Good and evil, heroes and villains. World really doesn't seem to work in this way. Creating two party system to solidify system of power and safeguard it against revolution is not an illusion. It's an action. If CCP right now split into two parties it would not be any more illusory two party system than the one in US. Sure it may vary in corruption levels or balance between local power centers and nationwide power but those are just parameters that would evolve to their optimum values. Optimum for the rulers of course.
> No, but the thing I'm taking issue with is the 'pragmatic solution' being a dead locked two party system that exists only for stability. That's the cynical view I think is wrong.
It's not a deadlock. It's carefully maintained to be exactly this. What do you think would happen if one party was winning all elections for decades? Would two party system survive?
Do you think people really neatly divide equally between the ones who want more progress and the ones that prefer things to stay as close as possible to the way they used to be? Democrats are winning popular votes for some time now and yet they are loosing elections occasionally. Gerrymandering is used to tip the balance back towards 50/50. Wouldn't you think that whenever democrats come to power it should be their utmost priority to deal with gerrymandering? So they can win every time? But they don't want to win every time, because stability of the system which is prerequisite of their wealth and power depends on them loosing from time to time. And gerrymandering is useful tool for ensuring that.
> I think the US is a democratic system with rule of law where policy moves forward via arguing.
It's true to some degree. The question remains how much of the policy moves forward via arguing and how much of it moves through mostly (publicly) silent agreement same way as it does in single party system. And also how fast the policy moves.
You noticed that two party system moves things slower than single party system because of the speed/stability trade off. I'd argue that it also moves slower than the democracies with multiparty systems, that can allow themselves to loose a party or two completely if their reactions to changing environment were not sufficiently fast and adequate. Where parties have to join forces and compromise to rule.
Two party system can't loose a party. Can't even allow one party to fracture. Republicans had to accept Trump. Because if not, he'd fracture their voter base. Same way they still have to accept him because, he still could create his own party and steal significant portion of republican voters. And that would mean democrats winning all the time and we can't have that because that would ultimately lead to unrest.
Two party system is more stable (and stagnant) than both single party and multiparty system and I think China will pick it up as soon as it significantly overtakes US in economy and military. There's no point of doing it sooner because it would just slow them down. And there's no point in trying multi-party democracy because it's very risky even though, when it succeeds it combines decent speed with decent stability.
Until then China must be very careful about who their citizens hate and quench every spark.
Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]
#249Earlier quoted context omitted.
> We can only hope that will be its downfall. Be careful what you wish for. Toppling a horrible government does not always solve problems. I'm not saying we should just throw the oppressed under the bus to get stability, but an actual downfall of CCP would probably be like Saddam Hussein only exponentially worse.
> Be careful what you wish for. Toppling a horrible government does not always solve problems. I'm not saying we should just throw the oppressed under the bus to get stability, but an actual downfall of CCP would probably be like Saddam Hussein only exponentially worse. I'm not so sure about that. Iraq has an unstable ethnic configuration that the US was in the position to preserve for dubious geopolitical reasons. I…
There have been a bunch of government collapses and insurrections in China over the last few hundred years, featuring an occasional Chinese Jesus (seriously) or sometimes mystical wushu boxers (also seriously). They all killed 10s of millions, some of them close to 100m.
It's never 'fine' for the people who live there.
Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]
#250Earlier quoted context omitted.
> "China went from communism into capitalism with single party system, without revolution." I'm not sure Deng Xiaoping would agree with this framing, though he was eventually able to shift things after Mao. There was a lot of violence during the cultural revolution. Deng reversed a lot of this, but it was in a revolutionary context (right after the cultural revolution). "And introducing a solution just for pragmatic…
> I'm not sure Deng Xiaoping would agree with this framing, though he was eventually able to shift things after Mao. There was a lot of violence during the cultural revolution. Deng reversed a lot of this, but it was in a revolutionary context (right after the cultural revolution). Deng reforms came 12 years after cultural revolution. After the death of Mao. And his coming to power and his reforms were realized as in…
> "Deng reforms came 12 years after cultural revolution."
I think this makes it seem less connected than it was and depends on what time you're talking about. The below excerpt suggests it was closer in time.
"Deng was publicly disgraced and criticized nationwide alongside then President Liu Shaoqi and was sent to work in a tractor factory in rural Jiangxi from 1969 to 1973. Deng briefly came back to power until the Tiananmen Incident in 1976, after which he was again stripped of all official titles and only kept his party membership.
Following Mao's death in September 1976, Deng outmaneuvered the late chairman's chosen successor Hua Guofeng and became the de facto leader of China in December 1978"
He also set term limits that were unfortunately removed by Xi.
> "Gerrymandering is used to tip the balance back towards 50/50. Wouldn't you think that whenever democrats come to power it should be their utmost priority to deal with gerrymandering? So they can win every time? But they don't want to win every time, because stability of the system which is prerequisite of their wealth and power depends on them loosing from time to time. And gerrymandering is useful tool for ensuring that."
I think this verges on conspiracy theory - democrats very much care about fixing gerrymandering (among other vote suppression tactics), it's just hard to fix. The recent failure in the Supreme Court makes it even harder. I think you buy too much into the idea that the current state is a preferred state that's quietly agreed on or seen as strategic, rather than a result of current incentives creating a local maximum.
> "Do you think people really neatly divide equally between the ones who want more progress and the ones that prefer things to stay as close as possible to the way they used to be?"
I actually wouldn't frame the right that way - I think they want different things (arguably even more revolutionary than the left in some cases), but I don't think they want things to stay the way they used to be. Given Trump's take over of the party it's not clear to me there's much consistent ideology there at all (at least among the voters)
> "Two party system can't loose a party. Can't even allow one party to fracture."
It's happened before with the Whigs and the 'know-nothing' party, but I generally agree that it leads to extremism and elevating people like Trump (which was the risk Washington was talking about).
> "And that would mean democrats winning all the time and we can't have that because that would ultimately lead to unrest."
Or it could lead to a center-right party that's more sane that can get a larger share of the population to vote for them. The Trump experiment was a risky one and resulted in a one-term presidential election and losing the house and senate. The margins were close, but the popular vote was not. Arguably gerry-pandering incentivizes this extremism and without it we'd have more moderate candidates that appeal to a larger amount of Americans.
I'd argue the risk isn't democrats winning all the time, but that currently a pretty small minority of people has disproportionate power in the USG - I think this can lead to instability over time too.
I agree with the Chinese concern of 'quenching every spark', but I'd be surprised if Chairman Xi gave up any power in the form of a 'second party' - it's very much against the CCP's rhetoric.