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PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

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Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#281

Post by fouric »

ddevault wrote: post #123
jordache wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The "work with the community to merge your software into the repo" model is much better for things that actually help people. So you ratchet up the friction for entry, that helps devs? Say what you want about the app store, but across all the devs for iOS, how many would go through the trouble of self distributing their product? Marketing, infrastructure, payment system etc... ? The app store is a tremendously low…

The benefits go both ways: the community also reaches out to the developers. A lot of software is added to repos without any input from the devs. The plain truth of the matter is that commercial app stores are malware distributors, and community repositories are not. The commercial app store model does not work, at least not for the user. Also: not all software is commercial, and not everyone wants their phones comme…

> The plain truth of the matter is that commercial app stores are malware distributors, and community repositories are not.

Citation needed.

> The commercial app store model does not work, at least not for the user.

The hundred of millions of Google Play users would like to have a word with you. (rampant ad-tech and freeware model are a function of the "race to the bottom" in app pricing, conditioning users to trade privacy for free apps, and Google's existence as an advertiser, not the fact that the Google Play store is commercial)

> Also: not all software is commercial, and not everyone wants their phones commercialized.

You can, uh, have an app store that distributes both commercial and non-commercial apps. In particular, there's a lot of open-source stuff on Google Play (and probably on the Apple App Store too).

> Your business model is often simply not welcome on the platform.

What platform? Who's not "welcoming"? The Pinephone runs open-source software.

> If we want a platform without commercial software incentives, that's our business, not yours.

Again, what platform? Who's "we"? The users? I'm a user, and I want commercial incentives - what makes your desires more important than mine?

Only a authoritarian, selfish mindset rejects a feature (commercial software) that is desired by some fraction of the user population, is useful, and is compatible with alternative features (open-source software) for a poor, vague reason like "commercialization".

Or does your definition of "software freedom" sound like "you can run anything you want on your computer...except for "proprietary" programs (which we get to define), or those that "enable" proprietary programs"?

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#282

Post by fouric »

imwillofficial wrote: post #262
ddevault wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This will be a tiny niche phone Yes. So what?

He is politely refuting your point. “The commercial app store model does not work, at least not for the user.” I will be more direct for your benefit. Not only are you wrong. You’re wrong on a scale so large, 100 years ago the average person had never thought of numbers that high. Not only is the commercial App Store system working for users, it’s working for billions of them. Billions of humans are cool with it. You…

In their defense, just because a platform has a large number of users doesn't mean that it's "working" (for some definitions of working). I use Android, but not because I like it, but because I have to. There are apps that I need access to that are only available for iOS and Android - and Android is the slightly less-terrible of the two.

Now, the more general argument about the "commercial app store model not working" is utterly ridiculous - you can't make any useful generalizations with a sample size of 2. (actually, Steam seems to be doing pretty well - I rarely hear people complaining about it, and it's a commercial app store)

> Not only are you wrong. You’re wrong on a scale so large, 100 years ago the average person had never thought of numbers that high.

...is an amazing comeback, that I will be taking.

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#283

Post by fouric »

ddevault wrote: post #273
imwillofficial wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is politely refuting your point. “The commercial app store model does not work, at least not for the user.” I will be more direct for your benefit. Not only are you wrong. You’re wrong on a scale so large, 100 years ago the average person had never thought of numbers that high. Not only is the commercial App Store system working for users, it’s working for billions of them. Billions of humans are cool with it. You…

They might be "cool with it", but only out of ignorance that there are better models. Your argument boils down to "might makes right".

I am a user, and programmer, informed about both the commercial app store models and package repositories. I am perfectly fine with commercial app stores - there's absolutely nothing wrong with the concept.

Are Google and Apple's implementations of the concept bad? Yes. But it's not very difficult to separate out the traits of the implementations with the traits of the idea. Steam seems to be doing very well, and as a user of that platform, they are executing it pretty well.

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#284

Post by ddevault »

fouric wrote: post #281
ddevault wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The benefits go both ways: the community also reaches out to the developers. A lot of software is added to repos without any input from the devs. The plain truth of the matter is that commercial app stores are malware distributors, and community repositories are not. The commercial app store model does not work, at least not for the user. Also: not all software is commercial, and not everyone wants their phones comme…

> The plain truth of the matter is that commercial app stores are malware distributors, and community repositories are not. Citation needed. > The commercial app store model does not work, at least not for the user. The hundred of millions of Google Play users would like to have a word with you. (rampant ad-tech and freeware model are a function of the "race to the bottom" in app pricing, conditioning users to trade…

>Citation needed.

https://play.google.com/store/search?q=flashlight

Click through some of these and see what permissions they ask for. Full network access, run at startup, view network connections, GPS location, read contacts, read the SD card, ads, microtransactions, the list of offenses goes on and on. All to do exactly one thing: call this function:

https://developer.android.com/reference/androidx/camera/core...

This is malware, and the services which distribute it are malware distributors.

>Only a authoritarian, selfish mindset rejects a feature (commercial software) that is desired by some fraction of the user population

Only a shmuck or an abuser thinks that it's okay to exploit user's ignorance of the alternatives to monetize their every waking breath and steal as much information about them as possible through deceit and propaganda. Prohibiting the exploitation of the public is not authoritarian, even if it means you don't make as much money.

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#285

Post by anoncake »

fouric wrote: post #280
anoncake wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Financial incentives redirect labour from useful to profitable activities.

...and, since many (not all) profitable activities turn out to be useful, financial incentives still end up incentivizing useful activities. For instance: [IDE company] employees are incentivized to develop [IDE], I buy [IDE], [company] makes a profit, and the value that I get out of [IDE] means that their activities were useful. Good stuff.

Sure. But others are entirely useless or even harmful. If you want people to implement dark patterns, tracking, advertising, or walled gardens, you have to pay them.

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#286

Post by Krisjohn »

Freak_NL wrote: post #27
wwarner wrote: post #20

I personally think that the effort to create open source phones is the single most important technology project going on out there. We have open source browsers, we have open source social apps, but we definitely do not have open source phones. Phones that can be truly owned and controlled by users will reshape the privacy discourse, from one of complaining and legal coercion, to one of choices and markets.

Except that it won't break the app-store duopoly. At what point will WhatsApp or even Signal consider providing a web-app, or even an open API for others to built clients against? Not doing this is a policy choice, not a technical one. Will banks offer something that doesn't require authentication via an app? Governments? App here meaning: Android or IOS. One solution might be to provide a sandbox for Android apps, b…

> At what point will WhatsApp or even Signal consider providing a web-app

I have Telegram on my Pine Phone and it works great.

It also runs a proper version of Firefox (even if it does identify itself as running on Android.)

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#287

Post by bullen »

varispeed wrote: post #212
bullen wrote: post #83

I ordered one and then realized the GPU is from 2008, doesn't even support OpenGL ES 3!!! Trying to cancel the order, even if supporting the initiative would be nice, my 3D MMO needs OpenGL ES 3!

Out of curiosity - why is this a deal breaker for you?

VAO and maybe more things that I don't even know about... I might be able to reimplement those in OpenGL ES 2 but I think OpenGL (ES) 3 is a good middle way between old stuff and over-engineered Vulkan, DX12 and Metal for dense but still ok performance and cross platform (mobile/PC) support.

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#288

Post by jauer »

e12e wrote: post #253
int_19h wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CBRS is a 3.5 GHz band that's specifically designated for shared use. Priority licensing is available, but in places where there are no licensees or other priority users for a particular channel, it is available for general use on a first-come-first-serve basis, with explicit reservation (over the internet). This does not require a license for the operator.

Do regular phones (android, iPhone) typically support this band?

It depends. Off the top of my head, major devices that support it include: iPhones & iPads since late 2019, Google Pixel 3 & 4, Samsung Galaxy S10.

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#289

Post by jauer »

int_19h wrote: post #208
swiley wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying it's ok to run base stations in that band without a license? A quick search isn't showing me much.

CBRS is a 3.5 GHz band that's specifically designated for shared use. Priority licensing is available, but in places where there are no licensees or other priority users for a particular channel, it is available for general use on a first-come-first-serve basis, with explicit reservation (over the internet). This does not require a license for the operator.

but you do need the certified installer flag/license, which ISTR is $700 on Coursera and access to a SAS to check out spectrum (like checking out a book from library).

Harder than setting up a WiFi AP, but much easier than winning spectrum at auction and less work than getting a traditional cellco eNB running (IMO). The Ruckus and Airspan eNBs I have feel pretty similar to a enterprise-class WiFi AP (Aruba/Cisco).

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#290

Post by megous »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #254
megous wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Startup times will probably change quite a lot for apps that use the GPU. I've noticed some performance work being done recently around startup times.

Sure - there's a lot that can be done there; but that will also make it faster on L5 :)

Some of this is lima specific, so not really.
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