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'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]

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Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]

#21

Post by loceng »

k_sze wrote: post #14
jonathannat wrote: post #13

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/18/hong-kong-huge... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-48656471 At many different times in 2019, 1.7M-2M Hong Kong citizens, or 25% of the population, proudly protested in the streets and requested for their freedom. If only something good had came out of it. Now it's sunk to what China's best at: false arrests: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/mc5bah/young…

I live in HK. 1.7M-2M is a really large exaggeration.

So what source do we trust on the numbers?

Satellite imagery is likely the best way to estimate.

The massive crowds in slow march peaceful protest videos I saw were astonishing.

However if we extrapolate that not everyone who'd support it or are silently supporting it - what % of people available to protest/march were out?

Edit to add: downvoting a question asking for trustworthy, quantifiable sources - you're failing.

Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]

#22

Post by Galanwe »

rado wrote: post #15
SiempreViernes wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's hardly surprising that media reports about the integration of a fairly liberal city into a very repressive dictatorship. Honestly, how do you feel about anything that isn't local news? Most of national news will be reporting about people you will never meet and don't know too.

Liberal yes. But they insist on "democracy" which is ridiculous, as it didn't happen under the British. They "almost" instated it shortly before the handover, but didn't succeed for some reason. Extremely amusing indeed. And HK people's lives were almost unbearable under the tycoons' feudalism, which has nothing to do with Beijing.

> But they insist on "democracy" which is ridiculous, as it didn't happen under the British.

What is your argument here? They did not had democracy before so they should not complain to not have it now? How twisted is that.

Also, I don't think claiming your constitutional right to democracy can be tagged as "ridiculous". Universal suffrage and democratic election are parts of the "Basic law", the equivalent of the constitution, that the PRC signed as part of the handover "deal".

Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]

#23

Post by rado »

bordercases wrote: post #17
rado wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Liberal yes. But they insist on "democracy" which is ridiculous, as it didn't happen under the British. They "almost" instated it shortly before the handover, but didn't succeed for some reason. Extremely amusing indeed. And HK people's lives were almost unbearable under the tycoons' feudalism, which has nothing to do with Beijing.

This comparison presumes a false choice between either close governance by China, or governance that resembles the old British order ("tycoon feudalism"). Why can't it be something else entirely?

Sure it can. But that's not the protesters' rhetoric.

Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]

#24

Post by rado »

Galanwe wrote: post #22
rado wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Liberal yes. But they insist on "democracy" which is ridiculous, as it didn't happen under the British. They "almost" instated it shortly before the handover, but didn't succeed for some reason. Extremely amusing indeed. And HK people's lives were almost unbearable under the tycoons' feudalism, which has nothing to do with Beijing.

> But they insist on "democracy" which is ridiculous, as it didn't happen under the British. What is your argument here? They did not had democracy before so they should not complain to not have it now? How twisted is that. Also, I don't think claiming your constitutional right to democracy can be tagged as "ridiculous". Universal suffrage and democratic election are parts of the "Basic law", the equivalent of the co…

Democracy has never existed (except on paper) and never will. How twisted is the US system whose main goal is to separate people and control them more easily?

Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]

#25

Post by system16 »

The CPC propaganda department has ordered its local media to stagger the Oscars this year and downplay the event because this documentary short was nominated. https://variety.com/2021/film/asia/china-tells-media-stagger...

I watched it recently and thought it didn't go nearly far enough in highlighting the abuses by the HK police, and even glossed over or omitted some very important events that triggered the continued protests. I actually felt it was far too fair to the HKSAR government and police.

The fragility of the CPC and its fear in being portrayed in any negative light knows no limits.

Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]

#26

Post by ipnon »

jonathannat wrote: post #13

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/18/hong-kong-huge... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-48656471 At many different times in 2019, 1.7M-2M Hong Kong citizens, or 25% of the population, proudly protested in the streets and requested for their freedom. If only something good had came out of it. Now it's sunk to what China's best at: false arrests: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/mc5bah/young…

Regarding arrest for accessing online information, I have become fascinated lately with the concept of legal warfare. It is the use of legal constructions to align other governments or subordinate bureaucracies to your strategic goals. For example, when Russia invaded Ukraine, they used the pretext that only volunteers from Russia were traveling to Ukraine to support a legal separatist movement.

Now none of these claims withstand any sort of legal scrutiny, but that's not the point. In the year or so it takes the Hague to spell out the obvious, that the Russian military in coordination with the Russian presidency created a bogus legal argument that aligns with their strategic goal of annexing as much of Eastern Europe as possible, the invasion is already completed and Donetsk is effectively a Russian vassal in the middle of Ukranian territory.

Just like in the time of the American Revolution guerilla tactics were innovations to the stodgy preconceptions of war that the British had, where they believed a gentleman's war should be fought by squares of men taken broadsides at regular intervals, we must recognize that armed conflicts today are always accompanied by legal warfare, the legal activities that support broader strategic objectives.

Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]

#27

Post by dirtyid »

rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #16
k_sze wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in HK. 1.7M-2M is a really large exaggeration.

What is your estimate, and how did you measure it? I live in Paris where most of French demonstrations take place (including the yellow vest movement) but I can't pretend to have better estimates than all local and global media sources and public observers.

Historically, HK protestors grossly over exaggerate for optics, but MSM usually endorses organizer headcount uncritically. Reality consistently closer to police (under)estimates. Professionals at crowd control are better at estimating crowd sizes. Study from HKU of pre 2019 protests:

https://graphics.reuters.com/HONGKONG-EXTRADITION-PROTESTS/0...

Another analysis with machine learning, about 1/2 protestor estimates.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/07/03/world/asia/ho...

And another, estimates protesters had to occupy 18 miles of streets to pack 1M protestors, actual protests occupied 1 mile. Acknowledges not exact science, but leans towards conservative estimate of 250k... incidentally close to police estimates.

https://www.cjr.org/analysis/how-many-marched-protests-hong-...

IMO just average protestor and police reports for ball park figure.

Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]

#29

Post by jbay808 »

rado wrote: post #15
SiempreViernes wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's hardly surprising that media reports about the integration of a fairly liberal city into a very repressive dictatorship. Honestly, how do you feel about anything that isn't local news? Most of national news will be reporting about people you will never meet and don't know too.

Liberal yes. But they insist on "democracy" which is ridiculous, as it didn't happen under the British. They "almost" instated it shortly before the handover, but didn't succeed for some reason. Extremely amusing indeed. And HK people's lives were almost unbearable under the tycoons' feudalism, which has nothing to do with Beijing.

> They "almost" instated it shortly before the handover, but didn't succeed for some reason. Extremely amusing indeed.

Perhaps because China declared that they'd invade if HK was allowed to self-govern?

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/world/asia/china-began-pu...

"documents recently released by the National Archives in Britain suggest that beginning in the 1950s, the colonial governors who ran Hong Kong repeatedly sought to introduce popular elections but abandoned those efforts in the face of pressure by Communist Party leaders in Beijing.

"The documents, part of a batch of typewritten diplomatic dispatches requested by reporters from two Hong Kong newspapers, reveal that Chinese leaders were so opposed to the prospect of a democratic Hong Kong that they threatened to invade should London attempt to change the status quo."

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