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Obedience Training

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Re: Obedience Training

#21

Post by ericmcer »

mgarfias wrote: post #5
me_me_me wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can you actually explain your opinion?

Sure: Koehler is usually improperly applied, using compulsion. Koehler as practiced by Koehler is a very very slow method of training. Put the dog in a sit, put him in a sit again, and again, until he learns to sit. Ellis style is all about letting the dog decide his actions, and then rewarding it when it makes the choice you want. for instance, to teach a pup to sit, we lure the dog into a sit using a treat. when he…

The problem I had with this style training is you are fundamentally asking the dog to make a choice, the best I can offer is its favorite treat and praise. Inevitably something better than that will come along. I have seen my dog hear a command that he knows will 100% result in a treat, pause to look at me, and then turn again to chase a squirrel. I don't want to discipline my dog but I don't see how a carrot only method of training can result in perfect obedience, and for a command like "Come" it can literally be deadly if they decide they don't need a treat at that moment.

Re: Obedience Training

#22

Post by mgarfias »

ericmcer wrote: post #21
mgarfias wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure: Koehler is usually improperly applied, using compulsion. Koehler as practiced by Koehler is a very very slow method of training. Put the dog in a sit, put him in a sit again, and again, until he learns to sit. Ellis style is all about letting the dog decide his actions, and then rewarding it when it makes the choice you want. for instance, to teach a pup to sit, we lure the dog into a sit using a treat. when he…

The problem I had with this style training is you are fundamentally asking the dog to make a choice, the best I can offer is its favorite treat and praise. Inevitably something better than that will come along. I have seen my dog hear a command that he knows will 100% result in a treat, pause to look at me, and then turn again to chase a squirrel. I don't want to discipline my dog but I don't see how a carrot only me…

That’s positive reinforcement only. You absolutely need to use all four quadrants of operant conditioning.

There have to be consequences to choosing to blow off a command.

Re: Obedience Training

#23

Post by throwaway3neu94 »

mgarfias wrote: post #22
ericmcer wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I had with this style training is you are fundamentally asking the dog to make a choice, the best I can offer is its favorite treat and praise. Inevitably something better than that will come along. I have seen my dog hear a command that he knows will 100% result in a treat, pause to look at me, and then turn again to chase a squirrel. I don't want to discipline my dog but I don't see how a carrot only me…

That’s positive reinforcement only. You absolutely need to use all four quadrants of operant conditioning. There have to be consequences to choosing to blow off a command.

There don't _have_ to be "consequences".

You _can_ definitely use positive only training to teach an alternate behavior (e.g. recall or distance down) and proof it under progressively more difficult scenarios (distance/duration/distractions), backing up every time the dog makes a mistake. Until that command is such a strong habit that the dog will reliably do the behavior on cue. And in the meantime prevent the bad behavior (with a leash) to prevent ingraining the undesired behavior.

Not saying negative reinforcement _should_ not be used (it may be more effective, and may even be the difference between achieving or not achieving the desired behavior with the amount of effort any particular trainer can put in). Just that it's not as absolute as you say.

Re: Obedience Training

#24

Post by throwaway3neu94 »

ericmcer wrote: post #21
mgarfias wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure: Koehler is usually improperly applied, using compulsion. Koehler as practiced by Koehler is a very very slow method of training. Put the dog in a sit, put him in a sit again, and again, until he learns to sit. Ellis style is all about letting the dog decide his actions, and then rewarding it when it makes the choice you want. for instance, to teach a pup to sit, we lure the dog into a sit using a treat. when he…

The problem I had with this style training is you are fundamentally asking the dog to make a choice, the best I can offer is its favorite treat and praise. Inevitably something better than that will come along. I have seen my dog hear a command that he knows will 100% result in a treat, pause to look at me, and then turn again to chase a squirrel. I don't want to discipline my dog but I don't see how a carrot only me…

Eventually it shouldn't be a choice though, it should be a deeply ingrained habit. There shouldn't even be a treat then, it should be faded out.

Of course that takes a lot of training, where you can control the situation to give the dog a fake choice (by leashing him) and/or ensure the bad choice is the right amount less awesome than the treat.

I am not advocating against negative reinforcement here. It can help build good habits by steering the dog towards the good choice and preventing the bad one. I'm just disagreeing with the notion that the end result should be the dog deciding based on expected reward and punishment.

(I know this is quite idealistic.)

Re: Obedience Training

#26

Post by krageon »

robomartin wrote: post #14

Dog training has about as many opinions as there are dog breeds. I have focused on training German Shepherd Dogs (GSD) most of my adult life. Not as an occupation but rather as a requirement to owning them and a hobby. When we got our first GSD's, decades ago, I had no clue what I was doing. We hired a local trainer recommended by the local pet shop. She was great for about four months and that was that. She was way…

> kids that you can fix by cuddling-up with them

You don't fix children with significant psychological problems that way either.

Re: Obedience Training

#27

Post by robomartin »

krageon wrote: post #26
robomartin wrote: post #14

Dog training has about as many opinions as there are dog breeds. I have focused on training German Shepherd Dogs (GSD) most of my adult life. Not as an occupation but rather as a requirement to owning them and a hobby. When we got our first GSD's, decades ago, I had no clue what I was doing. We hired a local trainer recommended by the local pet shop. She was great for about four months and that was that. She was way…

> kids that you can fix by cuddling-up with them You don't fix children with significant psychological problems that way either.

This is very true. Although some think so, particularly when it comes to dogs. We have a friend who has what I call a "killer little dog". The dog needs some serious discipline. It has tried to bite multiple people, including me. The treatment the dog receives is the typical "poor little baby!" as I call it. It's the stuff Cesar Milan has made millions fixing. To the people engaged in that kind of destructive behavior what he does looks like magic.

As you said, same with kids. We have a friend going through this right now. The culmination of this story has been that they had to send their kid to a 90 day program to deal with behaviors they likely caused over years of lacking structure and rules. You can be your kid's friend so long as you don't forget you are a parent first.

It's incredible how much I learned about raising kids from what I learned about raising dogs. They both need exactly the same thing: Leadership, structure and rules. It's that simple...and that complex for some.

I always think of dogs are mirrors into the owner's very soul. Every behavior you see is intimately linked to every interaction the owners have with the dogs. Dogs are rarely the problem.

Re: Obedience Training

#28

Post by mgarfias »

throwaway3neu94 wrote: post #23
mgarfias wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s positive reinforcement only. You absolutely need to use all four quadrants of operant conditioning. There have to be consequences to choosing to blow off a command.

There don't _have_ to be "consequences". You _can_ definitely use positive only training to teach an alternate behavior (e.g. recall or distance down) and proof it under progressively more difficult scenarios (distance/duration/distractions), backing up every time the dog makes a mistake. Until that command is such a strong habit that the dog will reliably do the behavior on cue. And in the meantime prevent the bad b…

I didnt say you had to beat the shit out of the dog when it didn't comply. It could be going into the 'negative punishment' quadrant, and with holding the dog's favorite tug.

Re: Obedience Training

#29

Post by awillen »

anonporridge wrote: post #8
awillen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the old saying goes, if you put ten dog trainers in a room, the only thing they'll agree on is that nine of them have no idea what they're doing.

Judge a tree by its fruit I guess. I wonder if someone has tried to try to do a research study to compare the dogs that are outcomes of different schools of training. I imagine it would be hard to define and measure 'desirable' outcomes.

The biggest challenge comes with the fact that you're often dealing with rescue dogs that are so wildly different from one another that you'd need a huge population and extremely consistent methods to show a meaningful result.

It's more doable if things are controlled (e.g. take a bunch of German Shepherd puppies given to very experienced trainers at birth), but those circumstances don't necessarily tell you what the "best" method is in a generalizable fashion.

Re: Obedience Training

#30

Post by [deleted] »

mgarfias wrote: post #28
throwaway3neu94 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There don't _have_ to be "consequences". You _can_ definitely use positive only training to teach an alternate behavior (e.g. recall or distance down) and proof it under progressively more difficult scenarios (distance/duration/distractions), backing up every time the dog makes a mistake. Until that command is such a strong habit that the dog will reliably do the behavior on cue. And in the meantime prevent the bad b…

I didnt say you had to beat the shit out of the dog when it didn't comply. It could be going into the 'negative punishment' quadrant, and with holding the dog's favorite tug.

[deleted]
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