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The price students pay for a prized IIT seat

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Re: The price students pay for a prized IIT seat

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't write this off as a solely as a symptom of education. Being able to question the judgement of an authority figure / decision maker is a privilege. A squeaky wheel gets the grease but a raised nail gets the hammer. Engineers generally lean more nail than wheel in most orgs, and being a minority or otherwise less respected subset of that group makes you feel even more like a nail. Dotting I's and crossing T's is…

> A squeaky wheel gets the grease but a raised nail gets the hammer. You're right about this. Indian work culture tends toward rigid hierarchical structures, and expects employees to be much more deferent to authority than you would find in a typical Silicon Valley startup. However, even after bringing our startup culture out there (unlimited PTO, stock options, choose your own hours, don't call me "sir"), I still fi…

> not one person thought critically about the specification or tried using the app from a user’s perspective.

I come from a manufacturing background and have moved into software. In manufacturing, if there actually are issues with the specification, you raise those through engineering change notices. If you start changing the spec on your own, that’s a big time no.

Do you have a formal process for spec changes or are you expecting the team to raise these issues independently and unprompted?

If someone has actually raised concerns with you about the spec or offered up changes, how did you respond to those? I work with people who always say, “why doesn’t anyone challenge me on my ideas?” This happens at the end of a meeting where these people will have shot down everyone else and their ideas. In reality they want “yes people” who tell them there is no disagreement because their idea is best.

I’m not saying this is you, but they may have been through these experiences and might need permission or direct instruction to show them speaking up is valued.

Re: The price students pay for a prized IIT seat

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the wording may have been confusing there, I meant that some developers tend to define their work to be exactly what is assigned to them on project management.

This is what you said: I have been hiring IIT graduates and building a team in India for several years now. They are all really smart people with a strong work ethic, but their approach to work tends to be the same as the approach they needed to succeed in a test-based education system. ... nobody will stop to ask why things are being done a particular way, or offer up some alternative. Which is of course nonsense. T…

Sundar Pichai got a masters from Stanford and an MBA from Wharton. I also think you are not reading the other points that JIRA is used by more than just IT, it is a project management tool used by everyone and isn't just for "bottom of the barrel" employees.

Re: The price students pay for a prized IIT seat

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what you said: I have been hiring IIT graduates and building a team in India for several years now. They are all really smart people with a strong work ethic, but their approach to work tends to be the same as the approach they needed to succeed in a test-based education system. ... nobody will stop to ask why things are being done a particular way, or offer up some alternative. Which is of course nonsense. T…

Sundar Pichai got a masters from Stanford and an MBA from Wharton. I also think you are not reading the other points that JIRA is used by more than just IT, it is a project management tool used by everyone and isn't just for "bottom of the barrel" employees.

JIRA is for service tickets [1]. No product development team in top FAANG companies uses JIRA. If you were able to hire IIT graduates to close service tickets (which I doubt) they are the bottom of the barrel.

[1] https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira/service-management/t...

Re: The price students pay for a prized IIT seat

#164

I went through the IIT system 10+ years ago. At that point, it was 3,500 people to be selected from a pool of 250,000 or so. These ratios have remained the same over the years I think. My hobbies were largely desk-bound/sedentary --- coding, trivia --- that I was able to carry out at a reduced pace, and resume after I cleared the exams. The pressure during the ages 15-17 was definitely quite intense --- I'd typically…

> The notion of an "ideal" childhood being lost depends on how you define the ideal. (edit : There was no pressure to have a girlfriend or boyfriend at that age. No "jocks" bullying studious "nerds". The "nerds" were the "cool" kids all through in fact. )

Immediately thought of that relevant Silicon Valley scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKz0M6SmQ8c

Re: The price students pay for a prized IIT seat

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIT students pick their major before joining the university.

Thanks for clarifying, glad to be wrong about this one. Would you happen to know if this was true at some point?

This has never been true; for the past 40 years, at least.

Re: The price students pay for a prized IIT seat

#166
post #2

I used to think that the “holistic” criteria elite US colleges use to select students was a failure of meritocracy. My view was that the non-objective metrics were excuses for colleges to let in students who wouldn’t grind but wanted prestige and had rich parents. But if you tie a person’s social status to performance on a single test, you suffocate all the useful things people could be doing if they didn’t have to s…

As a counter-example, I have gone through a relatable experience though not in India but France (our "preparatory classes" system also has similar high competitiveness/high pressure characteristics, to prepare for a few deciding exams). It only lasts for 2 years, but the stakes are somewhat similar from what I understand from the article. Having lived in the US for a decade now, one of the biggest culture gap I keep…

> the biggest culture gap I keep and that probably won't ever go away is how it's somewhat accepted here that "letting rich kids cheat/buy their way into Ivy League is not that bad, and look it pays for a new cafeteria".

There's a percentage of admitted students at which it's interesting to admit based on donations. Especially if one large donation can make need-blind admission possible for N students. But do it too much and you'll become a school that's known as "pay to win".

> (our "preparatory classes" system also has similar high competitiveness/high pressure characteristics, to prepare for a few deciding exams

There's also a third hidden option. The Polytechnique in Montreal is notorious for this: admit too much, collect tuition and then have students transfer out when they can't handle the workload.

Re: The price students pay for a prized IIT seat

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I follow. MIT and Caltech are very niche, but inside that niche, seem to have a pretty clear reputational advantage over Harvard. (Stanford, on the other hand, has some more niche overlap in CS at least.) Sadly, it's not a niche that lends itself to "future President prestige." But is that really hurting either MIT or Caltech, or their grads?

Compared to Stanford and MIT, Caltech is not getting the same caliber student since the late 70s-early 80s (and definitely since the mid 2000s) when looking at international Olympiad winners, etc

> Caltech is not getting the same caliber student since the late 70s-early 80s (and definitely since the mid 2000s)

Citation Needed.

Re: The price students pay for a prized IIT seat

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a counter-example, I have gone through a relatable experience though not in India but France (our "preparatory classes" system also has similar high competitiveness/high pressure characteristics, to prepare for a few deciding exams). It only lasts for 2 years, but the stakes are somewhat similar from what I understand from the article. Having lived in the US for a decade now, one of the biggest culture gap I keep…

I get it, and I actually agree that the culture you describe isn't a good look. What I'm going for is more the idea that if you consider the best alternative I can think of to the "holistic" approach, you get selecting applicants purely based on entrance exam scores. In such a world you'd be punishing a kid who plays with Arduino out of interest. Any energy devoted towards something other than test prep is energy was…

> In such a world you'd be punishing a kid who plays with Arduino out of interest. Any energy devoted towards something other than test prep is energy wasted.

For course selection too. You'll have students picking out classes because they are known to be easy and not because they are curious about it. Because they have to keep their GPA at a certain level.

Re: The price students pay for a prized IIT seat

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compared to Stanford and MIT, Caltech is not getting the same caliber student since the late 70s-early 80s (and definitely since the mid 2000s) when looking at international Olympiad winners, etc

> Caltech is not getting the same caliber student since the late 70s-early 80s (and definitely since the mid 2000s) Citation Needed.

I’m a Caltech alum. It’s common knowledge.

Re: The price students pay for a prized IIT seat

#170

"Like a 23-year-old machine learning engineer based out of Florida, who started his JEE preparation as early as Class 8, because his peers had started as early as Class 6. The engineer says he was so engrossed in his prep that he ignored basics such as good hygiene, good grooming, or even making friends." Wow, this is insane. For all the kids in the world who are doing this sort of thing, JEE or Gaokao style 1-in-100…

In my friend group, almost none of us are even slightly in touch with our high-school or earlier friends; I know some folks are in touch with childhood friends, but I don’t think it’s as common as all that.

But I agree with everything else!

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