Obedience Training
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Obedience Training
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Re: Obedience Training
#2Oh god Koehler. Just no.
If any of y’all reading this need dog operational training, seek out trainers that have gone to the Michael Ellis school for dog trainers, and use his methods.
Wife breeds white Swiss shepherds, has been to a few of his classes, and it’s how we raise our own pups. I have trained multiple dogs now, have done obed competitions, agility, and even some protection work.
Don’t use positive only, and don’t use the koehler crap.
Re: Obedience Training
#3Oh god Koehler. Just no. If any of y’all reading this need dog operational training, seek out trainers that have gone to the Michael Ellis school for dog trainers, and use his methods. Wife breeds white Swiss shepherds, has been to a few of his classes, and it’s how we raise our own pups. I have trained multiple dogs now, have done obed competitions, agility, and even some protection work. Don’t use positive only, an…
can you actually explain your opinion?
Re: Obedience Training
#4I don't know much about training, so I can't comment on which methods work best like other commentators. But I can confirm that anecdotally obedience training, at least in some forms, is like magic.
We adopted a shelter dog, so she came with a slew of emotional scars. She started showing signs of potential aggression, and apparently was on her "third chance" from the shelter already. We didn't want her to have to go back yet again, nor did we want to risk anyone or her getting hurt. So we searched around and found a trainer.
Again, I don't know what "method" this trainer used. But it was a single (expensive) session, 1.5hrs long, in our home with a former K-9 trainer. Afterwards it was like flipping a light switch on her. She no longer barked/growled/lunged at passersby or even other dogs. She's perfectly calm around other aggressive dogs. She won't leave or enter through doors without our permission. We can stop her dead if she chases after an animal in the backyard.
And it's not just us; our vets continually re-affirm how much better behaved she is while with them.
All that after one session and continued re-enforcement from us.
We also crate trained her, so sleep isn't an issue. That was another amazing transformation; going from crying all night to getting up and leaving the couch for her crate when it's past her bedtime and looking back at us like "you guys going to bed or what, geez!"
As for separation anxiety, which she definitely has, I came up with my own technique for that. First, we stopped crating her when we left. It caused her too much anxiety. But that didn't help completely. People suggested playing music, but that just made her more anxious as well. As did giving her treats before leaving. The thing that really worked: before we leave I just talk to her and tell her that we're leaving, tell her if we'll be back "soon" or "later", and tell her she's a good girl.
It's weird, but after a couple times, it now works like a charm. She definitely doesn't like it, but she immediately settles down and lets us leave without trouble. And she doesn't wreck the house while we're gone.
I'm not sure how much of what I say she "understands", or what part of my magical incantation is actually salient. She has an incredibly accurate sense of time, so I figured she might be able to correlate "soon" or "later" to how long we're gone. Hopefully that's communicating some expectations to her that help her be less anxious.
It's amazing the transformation a little training can do. To go from an aggressive shelter dog on her third lease on life, to one of the better trained puppies we know is an incredible journey.
Re: Obedience Training
#5Oh god Koehler. Just no. If any of y’all reading this need dog operational training, seek out trainers that have gone to the Michael Ellis school for dog trainers, and use his methods. Wife breeds white Swiss shepherds, has been to a few of his classes, and it’s how we raise our own pups. I have trained multiple dogs now, have done obed competitions, agility, and even some protection work. Don’t use positive only, an…
can you actually explain your opinion?
Sure: Koehler is usually improperly applied, using compulsion. Koehler as practiced by Koehler is a very very slow method of training. Put the dog in a sit, put him in a sit again, and again, until he learns to sit.
Ellis style is all about letting the dog decide his actions, and then rewarding it when it makes the choice you want. for instance, to teach a pup to sit, we lure the dog into a sit using a treat. when he sits, you mark the reward with a word (some people use clickers) and then treat. You end up with a pavlovian response, where when the dog hears "yes" or "good" he expects a treat, and gets excited. After awhile the dog will start sitting on his own, and you mark/reward that. Later on you can add in the command, when the dog is performing the action on its own.
The difference between the two methods is that with the ellis style, you end up with a dog that WANTS to work, and looks to you for direction rather than being dead inside.
I could go on more, but don't really have the time.
Re: Obedience Training
#6Oh god Koehler. Just no. If any of y’all reading this need dog operational training, seek out trainers that have gone to the Michael Ellis school for dog trainers, and use his methods. Wife breeds white Swiss shepherds, has been to a few of his classes, and it’s how we raise our own pups. I have trained multiple dogs now, have done obed competitions, agility, and even some protection work. Don’t use positive only, an…
can you actually explain your opinion?
No post body was provided.
Re: Obedience Training
#7Oh god Koehler. Just no. If any of y’all reading this need dog operational training, seek out trainers that have gone to the Michael Ellis school for dog trainers, and use his methods. Wife breeds white Swiss shepherds, has been to a few of his classes, and it’s how we raise our own pups. I have trained multiple dogs now, have done obed competitions, agility, and even some protection work. Don’t use positive only, an…
As the old saying goes, if you put ten dog trainers in a room, the only thing they'll agree on is that nine of them have no idea what they're doing.
Re: Obedience Training
#8Oh god Koehler. Just no. If any of y’all reading this need dog operational training, seek out trainers that have gone to the Michael Ellis school for dog trainers, and use his methods. Wife breeds white Swiss shepherds, has been to a few of his classes, and it’s how we raise our own pups. I have trained multiple dogs now, have done obed competitions, agility, and even some protection work. Don’t use positive only, an…
As the old saying goes, if you put ten dog trainers in a room, the only thing they'll agree on is that nine of them have no idea what they're doing.
Judge a tree by its fruit I guess.
I wonder if someone has tried to try to do a research study to compare the dogs that are outcomes of different schools of training. I imagine it would be hard to define and measure 'desirable' outcomes.
Re: Obedience Training
#9Earlier quoted context omitted.
As the old saying goes, if you put ten dog trainers in a room, the only thing they'll agree on is that nine of them have no idea what they're doing.
Judge a tree by its fruit I guess. I wonder if someone has tried to try to do a research study to compare the dogs that are outcomes of different schools of training. I imagine it would be hard to define and measure 'desirable' outcomes.
It has been attempted, albeit with a relatively small group of subjects and mostly focused on aversive vs. positive reinforcement methods: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
Re: Obedience Training
#10Earlier quoted context omitted.
As the old saying goes, if you put ten dog trainers in a room, the only thing they'll agree on is that nine of them have no idea what they're doing.
Judge a tree by its fruit I guess. I wonder if someone has tried to try to do a research study to compare the dogs that are outcomes of different schools of training. I imagine it would be hard to define and measure 'desirable' outcomes.
Maybe look at international competition, and see what kind of training everyone has converged on?
There’s no one training Koehler in high level IPG (IPO/schutzhund) or one of the ring sports.
I’m also not aware of actual LE/Mil doing anything Koehler. They’re all using all four quadrants of the operant conditioning.