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Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

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Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#521

Post by dang »

kevbin wrote: post #509
dang wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you aware that you're posting in exactly the flamewar style that we're asking people not to? I realize that this is a high-emotion, high-activation topic, but there are certain principles here that everyone needs to respect. That is what the site guidelines are for. A comment like this one (and worse, "we need to shame China and the Chinese people" – https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26548441 - I can't believe…

Yes, I'm sorry for being incendiary. However, I think shame and guilt are excellent tools for getting a culture on track. Better than war, anyway.

In my view that vector points directly toward war. The only difference is magnitude, not direction.

> a backwards culture

If you continue to post slurs, we're going to have to ban you. I don't want to ban you, but you can't do this here. Please don't do it again.

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#522

Post by frenchy »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #508
kittiepryde wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science is about collecting data, verifying, collecting more, in a repeating never ending cycle. Stopping science (especially in areas of active present day research) in the belief that we know and are done with it, just isn't sound logic. Viruses are not yet solved.

I am not arguing to stop science, I don't see the benefit we're hoping to get out of aggressively researching various theories about how exactly the 2019 covid virus spread to humans.

Presumably a better understanding of the origins of the 2019 virus would be useful for predicting the likelyhood of a similar outbreak from the same source, or allow people to alter practices to reduce that likelyhood.

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#523

Post by docmars »

Huh, I remember a certain "conspiracy group" that was demonized and declared a terrorist organization trying to think more deeply about a theory like this. Now a mainstream media outlet publishes this and nobody bats an eye. Pun intended. ;)

The hypocrisy is strong with this one, Luke.

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#524

Post by 908B64B197 »

gregwebs wrote: post #397

This is a great article explaining why a lab leak should always be a suspect. The alternative theory is that a virus traveled on its own (via bats or other animals) from bat caves 900km away to Wuhan where there are 2 labs researching bats. One of the labs is lesser known but is right next to the seafood market and the hospital where the outbreak was first known. [1] This article points out that a lab outbreak could…

> This article points out that a lab outbreak could have happened in the United States and many places in the world. We need to avoid demonizing China over this if we want to ever find out the truth and learn how to prevent another pandemic outbreak.

Then why hide information and prevent world-wide collaboration then?

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#525

Post by dang »

kevbin wrote: post #464

> We need to avoid demonizing China over this if we want to ever find out the truth and learn how to prevent another pandemic outbreak. No, we need to shame China and the Chinese people until they respect basic human dignity. Until they do, the country and its people are a dangerous, malignant threat to our civilized, Western world.

Comments like this are completely unacceptable on Hacker News and we ban accounts that post this way. I've addressed this here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26548697.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26547861.

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#526

Post by cassepipe »

kevbin wrote: post #481
dang wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is a noticeable step into nationalistic flamewar. Please don't do that in HN comments. That way lies hell, and we're trying for a different sort of discussion here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

The truth hurts. China released a deadly virus into the world. It tried to cover it up. It tried to blackmail Australia. It is extorting Africa. China and the Chinese people must accept their responsibility for this catastrophe. They must let the rest of the world, in the guise of the UN, come in and sort out how much of this crime was intentional and how much incompetence. China must be held accountable. It should p…

Thanks for illustrating so well the flamewar mode dang just mentionned.

--"The truth hurts"

You are just accusing people of refusing to see "the truth" which may be true but is not a argument about the validity of your thesis. That common rethoric. That also preemptively invalidates any counter-argument to your thesis because you know we're just deceived out of (fill in what you want).

-- "China released a deadly virus into the world."

China is not just one person. Even the Chinese gov is too big an entity to be given a single will and agency. This kind of abstraction is fine for everyday talk but must be discarded whenever you try to have an intelligent debate about something. --" the Chinese people must accept their responsibility" Wow, like if I am working as a coal miner in remote China I must be held accountable by "my" poor control of high tech labs? Come on I live in a "democracy" that has conducted nuclear trials in the Pacific nearby living places which I was totally against. Do I need to be held responsible?

-- "this crime"

Plain flamewar mode

--" it can provably meet western safety standards"

Did you even read the article?!

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#527

Post by 2-tpg »

2-tpg wrote: post #515
pmiller2 wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you're saying I should just believe it escaped from a lab because reasons? And you're asking me to believe the administration of a president who lied publicly 30,000 times over 4 years and who may soon be facing criminal charges? Sorry, but that's just not good enough. Actual evidence in the zoonotic origin column greatly surpasses that in the lab leak column. I'll go with what I can see, thanks. Example: https:/…

Believe whatever you want. If you believe the zoonotic origin, ok sure, but your circumstantial evidence for that is weaker than the circumstantial evidence for a lab leak. Yes. You are supposed to believe the administration of a president when they claim: The virus came from China. Whether deliberate or accidental, it likely originated in a laboratory. If you don't, I reckon you have bigger problems than a pandemic.…

For myself, the biggest circumstantial evidence I've seen is the manipulation of discourse on social media by state-sponsored trolls and bots. Whenever the downvote bots, US #metoo, charges of racism, and astroturfing begins, there is usually a big thing they are trying to hide. Even when discarding lots of evidence tainted by politics, this one remains. What would be the motive?

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#528

Post by nickt »

gregwebs wrote: post #397

This is a great article explaining why a lab leak should always be a suspect. The alternative theory is that a virus traveled on its own (via bats or other animals) from bat caves 900km away to Wuhan where there are 2 labs researching bats. One of the labs is lesser known but is right next to the seafood market and the hospital where the outbreak was first known. [1] This article points out that a lab outbreak could…

It’s probably important to point out that a “lab leak” is a result of human-clumsiness or similar, and not the sci-fi movie bad guys engineering a virus. A lot of the non-HN crowd don’t get the difference.

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#529

Post by empressplay »

kevbin wrote: post #509
dang wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you aware that you're posting in exactly the flamewar style that we're asking people not to? I realize that this is a high-emotion, high-activation topic, but there are certain principles here that everyone needs to respect. That is what the site guidelines are for. A comment like this one (and worse, "we need to shame China and the Chinese people" – https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26548441 - I can't believe…

Yes, I'm sorry for being incendiary. However, I think shame and guilt are excellent tools for getting a culture on track. Better than war, anyway.

It’s the regime that’s the problem not the culture

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#530

Post by ricksunny »

dang wrote: post #494
hokumguru wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking a step back, does he not at least bring up some valid points? The CCP did bar scientists from early investigation and has gone to considerable lengths to suppress national news outlets from properly reporting on the issue at hand. This does at least deserve some criticism.

Of course. The issue is simply that it needs to happen within the site guidelines, for example this one: " Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. " ( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ) Commenters here need to learn the difference between posting in the flamewar style and having curious conversation. The issue is not the topic—it's which mode peopl…

Admiring your efforts as an admin to maintain a civil discourse. I wish the remaining handful of scientists who dismiss lab-associated escape pathways as unworthy of investigation would be so civil: https://twitter.com/BlockedVirology

Particularly the mudslinging ('It's plausible she can't assemble them [referring to a Broad Institute genomicist supporting investigation into both lab-leak & zoonosis], but that's because of a lack of expertise'): https://twitter.com/K_G_Andersen/status/1373027946684837893?...

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