Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The price students pay for a prized IIT seat

theprint.in

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 171 posts

Re: The price students pay for a prized IIT seat

#91

Post by fleshdaddy »

hintymad wrote: post #43
bluefirebrand wrote: post #4

There is an argument to be made that to be the best at something you have to commit like that. You could write a similar story about pro athletes probably, although team sports would include some level of socialization by default, not all sports are team sports. And I imagine a lot of other sacrifices (friendships outside the team or sport, hobbies, education) are made in pursuit of a pro athlete dream too. And of co…

> You could write a similar story about pro athletes probably, That's my question too. When it comes to studying, "toil" is a four-letter word for American people. Oh, you study too hard. Oh you have a lost childhood. Oh solving math problems is not FaIr to other kids, for it shadows the true talent. But when it comes to sports? Oh man, the tone totally changes. "Toil" is da word! Mileage matters! If you train hard,…

I think part of the difference here is that it’s easier to accept something like sports as a true passion where as grinding and studying to be able to answer arbitrary test questions isn’t. I think that’s why people look at a kid spending all day studying music, art, chess, and honestly even math, science or programming as kids being kids with passions. Yes they both involve work but cramming for tests to try and get into a good school probably seems much more like capital W work as opposed to the sort required for a true passion.

Re: The price students pay for a prized IIT seat

#92

Post by drstewart »

mochomocha wrote: post #22
ghgdynb1 wrote: post #2

I used to think that the “holistic” criteria elite US colleges use to select students was a failure of meritocracy. My view was that the non-objective metrics were excuses for colleges to let in students who wouldn’t grind but wanted prestige and had rich parents. But if you tie a person’s social status to performance on a single test, you suffocate all the useful things people could be doing if they didn’t have to s…

As a counter-example, I have gone through a relatable experience though not in India but France (our "preparatory classes" system also has similar high competitiveness/high pressure characteristics, to prepare for a few deciding exams). It only lasts for 2 years, but the stakes are somewhat similar from what I understand from the article. Having lived in the US for a decade now, one of the biggest culture gap I keep…

I just looked up some of French's richest people and where their kids went to school -- amazing how ALL of them were smart enough to go to the best schools in France, Switzerland, and the UK (École Polytechnique, ETH, LSE) considering how egalitarian it is!

What a truly stunning coincidence indeed.

Re: The price students pay for a prized IIT seat

#93

Post by whack »

darth_avocado wrote: post #75

This article is a gross misrepresentation of what it takes to get into IITs. I got into one, and I can guarantee that this article pretty much picks and chooses data points as it wants. Yes it is academically challenging to get into IITs, but there's two ways you can get into one: Devote your entire life towards "cracking" the game that's the entrance exams, or just study enough that you've mastered the understanding…

The following is a great example of how the article cherry-picks its data:

> “They have been cut off from society, they are unaware of current affairs, and are desperately in need of our induction programme for freshers where we try to re-orient them to society and the institute,” the (IIT) professor said on the condition of anonymity. This skill gap haunts them even when they graduate. Despite all the hard work engineering students put in, a survey conducted in 2019 found that 80 per cent of engineers “are not fit for any job in the knowledge economy and only 2.5 per cent of them possess technical skills in Artificial Intelligence (AI) that industry requires”

The survey was looking at all engineers, not IIT graduates. If someone did a survey of IIT graduates specifically, I doubt even 1% would qualify as "unfit for any job". There is nothing in the survey which lends support to the idea that all their time spent studying "haunts them even when they graduate".

Not to mention the insinuation that "only 2.5 per cent of them possess technical skills in Artificial Intelligence" is a bad outcome for IIT graduates. The vast majority of engineers choose not to specialize in AI... because there are tons of alternative areas to focus on. This is also completely unrelated to the IIT prep culture.

I hate to generalize, but journalists in every country seem to have a real axe to grind against engineers. Presumably because we're their polar opposites in every way. And we also make a lot more money than they do... which must really get under their skin.

Re: The price students pay for a prized IIT seat

#94

Post by Daishiman »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #17
Daishiman wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not even being "at the top". Ultimately the difference in education in high-quality institutions just isn't really that big. And while it's true that it is a useful signal that you're sufficiently dedicated to study something deeply for a few years, the correlation between actual success or utility outside of that just doesn't seem to make it worth much.

> It's not even being "at the top" It seems to me that the kids pursuing it think it will take them to the top. I don't think anyone works that hard and sacrifices everything for a shot at being mediocre.

Kids do not usually have a well-formed idea of what exactly actually takes you places and what is merely tradition and formalities.

Re: The price students pay for a prized IIT seat

#95

Post by hnick »

smhost wrote: post #33
mochomocha wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a counter-example, I have gone through a relatable experience though not in India but France (our "preparatory classes" system also has similar high competitiveness/high pressure characteristics, to prepare for a few deciding exams). It only lasts for 2 years, but the stakes are somewhat similar from what I understand from the article. Having lived in the US for a decade now, one of the biggest culture gap I keep…

yeah, one of my professors would openly talk about how rich kids in grad school just pay other people to do their research for them. i don't think he meant to be demoralizing, but i remember thinking to myself 'so what the fuck am i doing here, then?'

> so what the fuck am i doing here, then?

Learning how the world works, apparently :(

Re: The price students pay for a prized IIT seat

#96

Post by da_big_ghey »

akhilcacharya wrote: post #49
ghgdynb1 wrote: post #2

I used to think that the “holistic” criteria elite US colleges use to select students was a failure of meritocracy. My view was that the non-objective metrics were excuses for colleges to let in students who wouldn’t grind but wanted prestige and had rich parents. But if you tie a person’s social status to performance on a single test, you suffocate all the useful things people could be doing if they didn’t have to s…

I'm becoming convinced by the idea that meritocracy itself is bad and a terrible way to organize society. But perhaps I'm biased by being a failure in the meritocratic system.

I am becoming convinced by the idea that democracy itself is a bad and a terrible way to organize government. But I am also at losses for a less bad way. In similarities, I am at losses for a less bad than meritocracy. I am listening to hear more other options but am not hear any less bad.

Re: The price students pay for a prized IIT seat

#97

Post by shrubble »

flowerlad wrote: post #62
primitivesuave wrote: post #30

I have been hiring IIT graduates and building a team in India for several years now. They are all really smart people with a strong work ethic, but their approach to work tends to be the same as the approach they needed to succeed in a test-based education system. The engineers will grind until any hour of the night to ensure that all feature requirements are met and JIRA tickets checked off, but nobody will stop to…

Something is really wrong, if he highly capable kids are checking off "JIRA tickets". Couldn't you find some college dropouts in Oklahoma instead?

Even the 120k managers and on up to the two levels higher director level, check off Jira tickets at the company I work at...

Re: The price students pay for a prized IIT seat

#98

Post by golergka »

ghgdynb1 wrote: post #2

I used to think that the “holistic” criteria elite US colleges use to select students was a failure of meritocracy. My view was that the non-objective metrics were excuses for colleges to let in students who wouldn’t grind but wanted prestige and had rich parents. But if you tie a person’s social status to performance on a single test, you suffocate all the useful things people could be doing if they didn’t have to s…

That's not the only two options. You could have a system that is based on objective, non-holistic metrics, but does not put all the pressure on a single test, single point in a person's life.

Actually, most of adult working life is already like that: there's many potential job interviews, projects that you can compete to various level of success, etc. The "single test" typically only exists in systems of higher education.

Re: The price students pay for a prized IIT seat

#99

Post by Zhenya »

flowerlad wrote: post #62
primitivesuave wrote: post #30

I have been hiring IIT graduates and building a team in India for several years now. They are all really smart people with a strong work ethic, but their approach to work tends to be the same as the approach they needed to succeed in a test-based education system. The engineers will grind until any hour of the night to ensure that all feature requirements are met and JIRA tickets checked off, but nobody will stop to…

Something is really wrong, if he highly capable kids are checking off "JIRA tickets". Couldn't you find some college dropouts in Oklahoma instead?

I think to check off they tickets, the first need to submit the fix and have it merged

Re: The price students pay for a prized IIT seat

#100

Post by caddemon »

majormajor wrote: post #31
endisneigh wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

elite colleges basically have to have positive sentiment. a purely meritocratic admissions process wouldn't be conducive to this, because "rich" people generally do things that increase the sentiment of their schools, like become president or start famous companies. This is why Stanford and Harvard are far more popular and recognizable compared to Caltech and MIT even though the quality of the students is virtually i…

I'm not sure I follow. MIT and Caltech are very niche, but inside that niche, seem to have a pretty clear reputational advantage over Harvard. (Stanford, on the other hand, has some more niche overlap in CS at least.) Sadly, it's not a niche that lends itself to "future President prestige." But is that really hurting either MIT or Caltech, or their grads?

Yeah, and honestly "niche" is a strong word. Sure nobody is going to MIT for theater, but they have a great reputation across most STEM fields as well as in subjects like econ, business, philosophy, etc. When I think of niche I think more of a place like Juliard.

I also think it's even arguable that MIT has more prestige than Harvard - of course this will depend how you're defining prestige, but people definitely assume high intelligence when they hear a student goes to MIT in a way they don't for Harvard. Which I have to imagine is at least somewhat explainable by the admissions differences.

Caltech is a much smaller school and is maybe a better example of a school that's underrated by people who don't know better? But for any reasons that prestige would actually matter I doubt Caltech students have any problems either.

Post reply on HN