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Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

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731–740 of 943 posts

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#731

I think it is strange that, on the one hand, the tech world has been advocating for the rights of neurodivergent people – society should accept that people on the autism spectrum are different and that’s OK. But at the same time RMS has been attacked for some statements very probably stemming from his autism that, while they may seem a bit shocking and at odds with the mainstream, were not illegal or intentionally of…

Ribbonfarm called this a couple years ago: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2018/03/06/a-quick-battle-field-g... Specifically battlefront #8. He calls it consequential because the the neurodivergent/PC conflict highlights an inherent paradox in the PC worldview. Most applications of political correctness focus (at least on the surface) on defending a marginalized group against the verbal attacks of a privileged one. When a…

The thing to note is that the worldview of social justice advocates is not "advocate for all oppressed groups", it's "advocate for all oppressed groups up to intersectionality". At least in America, we used to go through phases of, say, black power groups being kinda sexist, and women's liberation movements being hella racist. This poses a unique opportunity for people who oppose both: just use one to harm the other. For example, the founder of Planned Parenthood was willing to advocate for themselves in the language of eugenics, so if you hate abortion rights, you just constantly bring up all the awful things they said about black people. There's nothing stopping you from switching tactics a day later and complaining about, say, a BLM riot that winds up shutting down a Planned Parenthood clinic.

The social justice advocate's response to that is intersectionality: a defense mechanism of not engaging in advocacy that would benefit one oppressed group at the expense of another. They're not always great at this - some social conflicts are just difficult to actually make judgments on (e.g. Israel/Palestine). The thing is, though - I doubt "drop the autistics" is going to pick up steam in social justice circles. Autism, and neurodivergence in general, tracks very well with queer sexual orientations and gender identities. Social mores intended to enforce rigid gender roles and heteronormativity simply don't work on people who can't parse them. (The contrapositive of this is why there's a huge push for non-gendered children's toys.) Ergo, it's very unlikely that you'd see the social justice left tear itself apart like this, and more likely that you'd see people arguing that "drop the autistics" is bullshit.

I'm also going to point out that, as an autistic person myself, the stricter speech rules of the social justice left aren't terribly difficult to parse. The prior eras of social mores were far stricter because we didn't see them as coercive and thus didn't question their power, and it's somewhat troubling that people don't view it as an improvement from what we had before. It's sort of like how people coming from proprietary software sometimes argue that the GPL is non-free because it has some restrictions that don't conform to the unstated mores of proprietary licensing. Much of the reaction people have to these speech rules comes from two different places:

1. The people reacting to these rules are neurotypical, and used to invisible speech rules enforced by people with a common cultural heritage such that they wouldn't disagree on their unstated rules.

2. Many people in the social justice community are autistic (see above) and also had a hand in writing the rules. Of course, if people who can't parse social cues write the rules of a society, those rules are going to be explicitly stated rather than inferred.

In other words, the problem isn't that the social justice left is going to throw out neurodivergent people, it's that the social justice left is autistic, in cultural control, and writing the new rules of society in a way neurotypicals don't understand.

(Side note: #9 is a conflict that's been brewing in the back of my head for a while now. I love P2P tech but think the entirety of cryptocurrency has been a dead-end full of scams.)

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#732
post #574
post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Stallman said verbatim: >The word “assaulting” presumes that he applied force or violence, in some unspecified way, but the article itself says no such thing. Only that they had sex. >We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from mos…

> I guess if some billionaire flew me to a private island in the Carribean where young attractive girls started throwing themselves at me, and I was the age and... attractiveness of Minsky, giant alarm bells would have been blaring in my head [...] As you may or may not know, some women will voluntarily have sex with men in exchange for money, no coercion or assault required. If a billionaire flew you to a private is…

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Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#733
post #581
post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess if some billionaire flew me to a private island in the Carribean where young attractive girls started throwing themselves at me, and I was the age and... attractiveness of Minsky, giant alarm bells would have been blaring in my head [...] As you may or may not know, some women will voluntarily have sex with men in exchange for money, no coercion or assault required. If a billionaire flew you to a private is…

>As you may or may not know, some women will voluntarily have sex with men in exchange for money, no coercion or assault required. Which is also illegal. And if you're having sex with a teenager for money, she probably has some pretty major life issues going on. Which as a 60-year-old - you should know better. Period. >If a billionaire flew you to a private island with attractive woman offering to have sex with you,…

I know a number of musicians and DJ's and some women will voluntarily have sex with them, just because they have some small amount of fame. Not even money is required.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#734
Basically, "we've waited long enough for people to forget, we're bringing him back and we have no issue with his behavior which we hope will continue the same as before."

RMS doesn't need to be on the board to have an impact - he's already well known (for better or worse) and can support the FSF as an individual.

Apparently no one learned anything from the experience, and history will repeat itself. FSF has shown its true colors - a cult of personality around RMS.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#735
post #603
post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which is also illegal. Where? Even within the US, prostitution laws vary wildly. > And if you're having sex with a teenager for money, she probably has some pretty major life issues going on. Did Minsky know that they weren't adults? Do you have a source for that? > So... sex trafficking. By definition. Wrong. Not even by definition. If you disagree, show me a valid definition of sex trafficking that includes "flyi…

>Where? Even within the US, prostitution laws vary wildly. I guess it's fortunate we have that information: Minsky is from Massachusets: illegal. Guifreye and Epstein Florida: illegal. Little St. James: illegal. >Did Minsky know that they weren't adults? Do you have a source for that? You entirely missed the point. A 60 year old man sleeping with someone young enough to be his granddaughter is disgusting. Full stop.…

> A 60 year old man sleeping with someone young enough to be his granddaughter is disgusting.

Sure, but from all accounts I've seen, its not even clear that he did sleep with her. It seems likely that he did not.

But its really not uncommon for older guys to be with young (usually 20's) women, look at older male actors. The lady in question was 17 IIRC, its not inconceivable to me that a 17 year old could be mistaken for early 20's.

I mean, I personally still think that's wrong, but my point is that it totally does happen, without any coercion or anything like that, so that it could also happen when someone underage is mistaken for someone slightly older, especially if groomed and coerced by Epstein, doesn't seem inconceivable to me.

Doesn't make it right, but its more nuanced than "he's old therefore he should have known she was coerced" (and again, apparently he didn't actually do anything anyway).

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worst part is that the blog post that started a lot of that literally quoted RMS one sentence and the rephrased it as something completely different in the very next sentence. And nobody called them out for it. He basically just said "Minsky may not have known because Epstein most likely forced the girl into acting as if her was willing" (paraphrased from memory) and it got turned into "RMS said the girl was will…

Yes, the full quote with context makes it worse, not better.

How? The full quote says that she presented her in a way that Epstein groomed and coerced her to. That is, the blame for anything that may have happened is clearly on Epstein. How does that make it worse?

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#737

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would his getting a diagnosis and publicly sharing that private medical information make you start treating him as an actual human being, or nah?

I would disagree with his rhetorical stylings whether or not he had autism, and probably wouldn't change much in the way of how I disagreed or really talked about him. > publicly sharing that private medical information Are we gonna side-step the fact that he's publicly stated in several interviews that he suspects that he's on the spectrum, or nah? > make you start treating him as an actual human being In what way h…

> In what way have I not?

Publicly speculating about medical diagnoses, for one thing.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#738

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the OP, but GNU/FSF has stagnated in the past 20 years. There's no cohesive vision; GNU is more of a ecletic collection of software packages than a complete OS. The FSF has no huge influence; most of its impact is based on its historical role.

I guess more of what I'm asking is how rms contributed to GNU's lack of traction rather than whether it is declining/not gaining traction or not.

Given he's the leader of GNU and formerly the leader of the FSF, he's responsible for any failure of GNU/FSF to live up to their potential. Given that free software and open source have only become more popular recently, and given that other free software organizations have not been shrinking (Debian, Apache, NLNet, OpenCollective, Linux Foundation), I think it's fair to say the FSF and GNU could be more successful with better leadership and a shift in vision or strategy (even without compromising on its ideals).

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#739
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ribbonfarm called this a couple years ago: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2018/03/06/a-quick-battle-field-g... Specifically battlefront #8. He calls it consequential because the the neurodivergent/PC conflict highlights an inherent paradox in the PC worldview. Most applications of political correctness focus (at least on the surface) on defending a marginalized group against the verbal attacks of a privileged one. When a…

Honestly asking, what's the difference between someone being neurodivergent and just thoughtless / mean / an ass?

warning: super anecdotal

I have found the difference to be willingness to reflect or to what extent they are trying.

A lot of my socially clueless friends (can't speak for if they lie on the spectrum) are delighted when I offer them a new set of rules that were previously invisible, instead of insulting them for not 'getting it'. They love being told what the lines between mean&blunt or curt&concise are. They can work around context well too, as long as it is explicitly laid out to them.

Mean people (adults) are usually one of:

1. Neuro-diverse people who don't know they are mean

2. People with insecurities they are trying to work on

3. People with insecurities they refuse to acknowledge

#3 is not worth it. #2 can seek help using traditional means. #1 needs some training wheels and personalized instruction to work their way up to socially well adjusted. Think of it as a person with a learning disability.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure where you are from originally, but the US is fairly unique in the world when it comes to these things.

I'm getting on aside note on a side note already but this bumps into something I've been thinking about for days now so I can't resist. I'm beginning to think the swearing thing in the U.S. has to do with a perception of the concept of "innocence". Because I've noticed a lot of people only begin to have a problem with swearing here when it involves children. For sure, there are people who are just generally against s…

I think the word you're looking for might be "puritanism".
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