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Red seaweed supplementation reduces enteric methane by over 80% in beef steers

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Re: Red seaweed supplementation reduces enteric methane by over 80% in beef steers

#151

Post by samuelbalogh »

Doji wrote: post #145
mogadsheu wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a great start to understanding flows of carbon and other substances through the ecosystem! I’d like to add that much of the feed is grown using fertilizer, which is often/typically produced via fossil-fuel consuming processes (see Fischer Tropsch). Where carbon is stored in the system is another major consideration. Great post!

I wasn't aware that fertilizers are commonly produced from fossil fuels. That's definitely a problem! I'll add some additional caveats myself. In certain areas of the world (South America comes to mind) cattle production is driving deforestation. Food transportation and farming equipment generally consumes fossil fuels. I'm sure we can think of more!

I don't think it's fair to treat deforestation as a local issue. Cattle production drives deforestation - whether it's in Brazil or the USA or China, doesn't matter, because we share the atmosphere.

Three-quarters [of global deforestation] is driven by agriculture. Beef production is responsible for 41% of deforestation [...]

https://ourworldindata.org/what-are-drivers-deforestation

Re: Red seaweed supplementation reduces enteric methane by over 80% in beef steers

#152

Post by DubiousPusher »

lazide wrote: post #144
DubiousPusher wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that simple. Not all American beef is raised on native grasses.

Why is native or not native important from a carbon balance perspective? Alfalfa still pulls carbon from the air when it grows.

What I should say is, not all American beef is fed from naturally occurring pasture land. In fact, a good deal of it is not.

Re: Red seaweed supplementation reduces enteric methane by over 80% in beef steers

#153

Post by fastball »

airhead969 wrote: post #140
fastball wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you: feed them algae, don't deforest, and don't give them antibiotics unless absolutely necessary?

Where would the land come from to grow all of the grain required to feed 10 billion people Big Macs? Meat ag doesn't scale sustainably. See also: CAFOs.

Sure, and no CAFOs (which is somewhat a given/necessary if you're not abusing antibiotics). So grass-and-algae-fed beef in regions where growing crops for human consumption is not very viable, because not everything grows everywhere and because humans (unlike cattle) do not have 4 stomachs with which to process plants that are not particularly nutritious.

Additionally, are you implying that anyone is suggesting beef should be the primary food source for 10B people? Because I've never seen anyone make that claim. You didn't say "how about we reduce meat ag and use something more scalable for feeding most people", which is a stance I agree with. Instead, you said "how about eliminating meat ag altogether", which is what I was replying to.

Re: Red seaweed supplementation reduces enteric methane by over 80% in beef steers

#154

Post by airhead969 »

jamesgreenleaf wrote: post #34
airhead969 wrote: post #4

This is like improving ICEs to enable their continued existence. To what end? How about eliminating meat ag altogether since it's a waste of resources, a significant component of man-made climate change, a pandemic risk, a major source of pollution, driver of deforestation, and poses a threat to antibiotic resistance? But no, the typical rationalizations include: "Muh cheezburger is muh freedom. I can eat whatever I…

You're essentially correct, and (I think) being downvoted for the tone of your rhetoric, which could be phrased in a more pleasing and convincing way. Also, most of us do love cheeseburgers, unhealthy though they may be. Either way, humanity hasn't matured enough for this viewpoint to be considered common sense. Give us another few centuries.

The truth is painful and people will never listen because it threatens their identity and their lifestyle, so it doesn't matter how it's phrased. Only top-down mandates, unlike democratic processes, can solve climate change. I hope China threatens every country with obliteration unless they meet net carbon negative goals and participate in international CCS efforts to reduce GHGs immediately. No other mechanism will work because 99.9% of the planet aren't wise enough to save their own children. Those who prevent or avoid climate change GHG reductions are tantamount to firing guns at everyone else. And what do you do with someone who is trying to kill you and your family?

Re: Red seaweed supplementation reduces enteric methane by over 80% in beef steers

#155

Post by lazide »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #152
lazide wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is native or not native important from a carbon balance perspective? Alfalfa still pulls carbon from the air when it grows.

What I should say is, not all American beef is fed from naturally occurring pasture land. In fact, a good deal of it is not.

At this point, nearly all agricultural land was converted a century ago. The trend now is more towards decreasing total agricultural acreage if anything?

No one in America has slash and burned a forest to feed cattle for a very long time.

Re: Red seaweed supplementation reduces enteric methane by over 80% in beef steers

#156

Post by eightysixfour »

Doji wrote: post #125

A common misconception which I frequently see when this topic arises is the failure to distinguish carbon cycles and one-way carbon emission. You exhale carbon dioxide. However, this carbon dioxide comes from the carbon in the food you eat, and the food you eat obtained it from the atmosphere. Thus, it's a cycle. As a system (ignoring food transportation, deforestation, etc.) it's effectively carbon neutral. By contr…

> You may be surprised to learn that cattle herd size has remained relatively stable over time. Additionally our planet was once host to wild ruminants like Buffalo which no longer exist in large numbers. As a result I would be very surprised to learn that bovine methane production is completely out of historical context.

I think historical context is useful information, but just because it was fine at some point in the past does not mean it is fine in the current context. There are new sources of greenhouse gases and, as the dominant species, we have to make decisions about which ones are most important to us and make trade offs. Reducing the emissions from farmed biomass means we have to make less of a tradeoff.

Re: Red seaweed supplementation reduces enteric methane by over 80% in beef steers

#157

Post by agurk »

titzer wrote: post #136
Doji wrote: post #125

A common misconception which I frequently see when this topic arises is the failure to distinguish carbon cycles and one-way carbon emission. You exhale carbon dioxide. However, this carbon dioxide comes from the carbon in the food you eat, and the food you eat obtained it from the atmosphere. Thus, it's a cycle. As a system (ignoring food transportation, deforestation, etc.) it's effectively carbon neutral. By contr…

> You may be surprised to learn that cattle herd size has remained relatively stable over time. Do you have a source for this? Wikipedia says there are an estimated 75 million ruminants worldwide, while there was a peak of 1 billion cows on Earth in 2014.

I've been doing some research on this lately.

US Numbers [0] direct from USDA and World Numbers [1] who claim to be from USDA but I haven't been able to confirm that yet.

[0] https://www.nass.usda.gov/Charts_and_Maps/Cattle/inv.php

[1] https://beef2live.com/story-world-cattle-inventory-1960-2014...

Re: Red seaweed supplementation reduces enteric methane by over 80% in beef steers

#158

Post by calvinmorrison »

yboris wrote: post #39
calvinmorrison wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we could all go vegan, skip off our normal diets, a huge change to the world OR china could stop running their very dirty coal plants. Please stop making everything _my_ problem when other countries do not give a rats ass.

Where's that American aim of being #1 ("exceptional") in ways like "ethically good" or "world leader taking the world into a better future"? Why is it now "well, others are doing bad things, we may as well pollute the shit of the planet too"?

> Why is it now "well, others are doing bad things, we may as well pollute the shit of the planet too"?

Why is the burden on me? That's never been explained by all the climate religionists out there. When the west does something it's bad. When everyone else does it, they get a pass?

We already did the industrial revolution. We already went through the long process. They have free wins - they don't need to design new processes or methods - they have plenty of money.

They have the wrong priorities.

Instead we can sit here and pat ourselves on the back for not using plastic straws, because save the turtles or some absolute crock, while 4 or 5 countries in asia produce almost ALL of the plastic trash in the oceans.

Re: Red seaweed supplementation reduces enteric methane by over 80% in beef steers

#159

Post by pharke »

titzer wrote: post #130
Doji wrote: post #125

A common misconception which I frequently see when this topic arises is the failure to distinguish carbon cycles and one-way carbon emission. You exhale carbon dioxide. However, this carbon dioxide comes from the carbon in the food you eat, and the food you eat obtained it from the atmosphere. Thus, it's a cycle. As a system (ignoring food transportation, deforestation, etc.) it's effectively carbon neutral. By contr…

> Since the methane released from cattle is continually degrading, it does not accumulate. That's like saying lakes are impossible because of rivers. If you look at historical methane concentrations in our atmosphere, they are already almost 3x of pre-industrial levels, and over 3x of mean historical levels over the past ~1 million years [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_methane

The wikipedia page you link to clearly shows that enteric fermentation accounts for 16% vs Coal and Oil at 19%. There is also another 36% anthropogenically produced methane in that chart so I think that easily accounts for the 3x increase without pinning it on cows. Interestingly rice cultivation contributes a whopping 12%.

Re: Red seaweed supplementation reduces enteric methane by over 80% in beef steers

#160

Post by airhead969 »

j-pb wrote: post #13
rebuilder wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The devil is in the details, like: how do you get it done?

You mean convince people to stop eating meat? It's already happening. At least in germany the number of vegan meat alternatives has exploded. These used to be niche products, you could only get in specialty stores. Now there's whole supermarked isles dedicated to them. The solution is pretty simple. Stop subsidizing meat and diary farmers. Stop their lobbying, which results in ridiculous laws like the ones in the EU,…

There is limited progress in terms of store representation, but it's not nearly fast or complete enough. It has to be mandated to stop it because there are too many "no mask, anti vaxx" people who will never stop using it like sugar of lead, DDT, asbestos, PTFE, or leaded gasoline.

"Almond milk" grow of almonds is a waste of water in water-scarce areas. Also, compounds in almonds bind to testosterone. It's a very wasteful product.

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