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Cancel We The Web? (2020)

wetheweb.org

161–170 of 280 posts

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#161
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, she is the character that needs to be ignored. That's the proper way to deal with trolls - not feeding them, not fighting them but starving them of attention they so desperately crave.

This is why you should just ignore “people on Twitter.” People like this only have power if you pay attention to them. I’m not on Twitter and have never been. People could be “canceling” me there right now and I’d have no idea, and it wouldn’t affect me in the slightest. We give people power by paying undue attention to them.

I know someone (no friend of mine) who said some indefensible things on social media. He ended up losing his job not because of what he said, but because people found where he worked and called up threats against his employers. That wasn’t enough. They also found out where he lived, graffitied and egged his house, made personal threats. I don’t know whatever happened to the guy but the last I heard he had his roommates lying, claiming he had moved.

If you get canceled, it doesn’t happen on Twitter.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Take Mr. X, who is outraged by Microsoft's behavior and refuses to buy Microsoft's products, tells other people about his problems with Microsoft, and tells everyone to use FOSS alternatives? Now, Mr. X also thinks that it's stupid to believe in god, and is not afraid to say it to everyone he meets. He's suddenly changed from "FOSS advocate" to "toxic workplace on legs". What's toxic about this? Two perfectly sensi…

> What's toxic about this? Two perfectly sensible points of view and you think Mr. X is dangerous to be around? Not sure where the word "dangerous" comes from. Just to explain things. If you tell people at work that it's stupid to believe in god, you are probably going to get fired, and rightly so. It's not dangerous, but it is toxic (belittling people for their religious beliefs).

Toxic means dangerous.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#163
We have to stop feeding the trolls. I think someone like Stallman probably made the choice to resign "for the good of the FSF". He probably reasoned, like so many people in this situation, that staying on would be detrimental to the goals of the organization at this point, and he cares more about free software than he does about personally leading it. I think that's admirable, but I think it's wrong-headed.

It may be true in a narrow sense that caving was what was best for the FSF in that moment, but it was bad for the larger world of free software, because of the precedent that it set. It was bad because it fed the trolls. These mobs feed on success. When they see themselves getting people fired, that is incredibly energizing, and that energy points only in one direction: more. Who are we going to cancel today? The trolls are hungry.

Internet communities have been dealing with trolls for decades now, and it is actually a fairly well understood problem. The only way to kill the trolls is to starve them. Don't engage with them, and most of all, do not cave to them. When they see that their tactics aren't working anymore, they'll stop doing it. Unfortunately that may mean a temporary rough period for your organization, if you are the victim of something like this, but it will pass, and it will probably pass more quickly and with less harm than you think.

Now, to be clear, I am not suggesting that organizations ignore serious abuse. If something is reported and your board actually believes a real transgression occurred, it should absolutely be dealt with. But I don't believe that's what happened in the Stallman case. I don't believe for one second that the FSF board wanted him to resign. I think they felt they had no choice, due to mob pressure. And that's the situation in which I implore people to resist. Do not give in to mob pressure that you don't agree with.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Take Mr. X, who is outraged by Microsoft's behavior and refuses to buy Microsoft's products, tells other people about his problems with Microsoft, and tells everyone to use FOSS alternatives? Now, Mr. X also thinks that it's stupid to believe in god, and is not afraid to say it to everyone he meets. He's suddenly changed from "FOSS advocate" to "toxic workplace on legs". What's toxic about this? Two perfectly sensi…

This hypothetical Mr X is going to take all of a week to get the entire helpdesk & IT procurement team (and every religious coworker) to avoid him and his need to criticize some aspect of their lives. That's "toxic" because now you have a staff member who people won't communicate effectively with.

Now you're inventing more personality for Mr X. He doesn't like Microsoft and doesn't hide it. He thinks Santa Claus is for children and doesn't hide it. He's not the problem here.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#165
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nope, she is the character that needs to be ignored. That's the proper way to deal with trolls - not feeding them, not fighting them but starving them of attention they so desperately crave. That solution to trolling has never worked and never will. The reason is that it requires near complete agreement and coordination between uncoordinated individuals, which is impossible for any but the smallest groups. There's…

It doesn't require complete agreement - it does require same level of agreement and cooperation that allows us to have common language, common culture, common laws, Open Source projects, charities, etc. Just a common understanding that empowering people that thrive on tearing down and destroying others is bad for everybody, and we should not fall for any noble words they veil themselves with and see through it to the…

> It doesn't require complete agreement - it does require same level of agreement and cooperation that allows us to have common language, common culture, common laws, Open Source projects, charities, etc....

> Yes, there will always be those who do not abide for the societal convention for one reason or another.

I mean, as far as I can tell, the "societal convention" you're advocating for doesn't exist as such, so you lack even the minimal "some level of agreement" that your tactic requires.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#166
post #84

Any writeup of this that concentrates on external responses and ignores the strong response from many within the communities that RMS led is failing to tell the complete story. There's no shortage of people extremely familiar with his work and behaviour who felt his continued involvement was inappropriate, but instead we're exposed to story after story about how a group of people pushing a one sided narrative unjustl…

This may well be true, but it wasn't the centerpiece of his cancellation. And if it is true, it hasn't been publicly articulated in any coherent way, as far as I can tell. I'm not saying that it isn't the case, it's well known that RMS can be abrasive. But if he was actually forced out for that reason, it seems like someone familiar with it should have written that up in some way.

I've seen a few off-hand accusations that he made women uncomfortable in non-specific ways. I can certainly believe that might be true, and may indicate some greater transgression lurking behind the scenes. But to my knowledge nobody has actually said what that is.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, people who have technical discussions are often blind to their own emotions and the effect that their words have on the people around them. In good this can be solved. In bad cases, people talk about "discussing technical issues" and "directness" as a shield for their poor behavior. An example from real life: A student, Y, was having a problem with her CS lab assignment, and talked to her professor,…

The "bad path" you're describing is what I and many others like about working in software. When I'm meeting with other technical people, we can have a frank discussion about problems we're facing and solutions to them, which comes much more naturally to me than constantly analyzing the feelings and relative status of everyone in the room. I completely understand why other people prefer more empathy-driven conversatio…

> The "bad path" you're describing is what I and many others like about working in software.

This is not true of software in general. Software companies are diverse, and they are run in diverse ways. (Maybe not as diverse as other industries... but there is still a lot of variation.)

> When I'm meeting with other technical people, we can have a frank discussion about problems we're facing and solutions to them, which comes much more naturally to me than constantly thinking about the feelings and relative status of everyone in the room.

There are a few things I'd like you to consider.

1. Software companies face problems with people. Good managers shield engineers from people problems as much as possible, but if you are only having discussions about technical problems and not people problems, then you are probably not having frank discussions.

2. The fact that it does not come natural to you to constantly think about the feelings of others is not unusual nor is it a fundamental part of your job to constantly think about the feelings of others. If that were the case, there would not be so many good software engineers on the autism spectrum. I have worked with several.

3. It is not expected that you intuit when people are hurt, never say anything hurtful, or think about people first when you are having a technical discussion. However, it is expected that you are aware that your behavior can have a negative impact on other people in the organization and that you make reasonable attempts to correct your behavior if necessary.

> ... but I can't support the idea that their preference is fundamentally superior to mine.

This isn't a dichotomy. An organization needs a combination of strong technical skills and strong people skills in order to succeed. Those skills are, of course, not distributed equally. There is no expectation that a software engineer have the same people skills as an engineering manager.

However, consider this.

An engineering manager primarily works on people problems but would suffer greatly if they had zero technical skills. An engineering manager with zero technical skills is a liability. Likewise, a software engineer with zero people skills is a liability.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#168

Ms. Strossen's response is actually quite well argued and uses principles of mainstream American Liberalism that cannot be dropped without significant modification to the school of thought itself. Anyway, no one is stupid enough to talk about lots of interesting problems in public anymore. The Internet isn't a safe place to do so. That's okay. But I wonder if there is a safe way with a discovery medium built in. Mayb…

It can be perfectly safe again once PR departments realize they can ignore the vocal minorities of Twitter without negative consequences to their bottom line.

There's negative consequences in ignoring marketing opportunities, so I can't see PR departments losing interest.

A public relations nightmare is the PR departments wet dream.

There's no such thing as negative publicity, only free advertising and marketing opportunities.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#169
post #158
post #9

> Activists quickly found his reputation for asking women out and making jokes about “EMACS virgins." I'm all in favor of believing victims of sexual harassment and assault. Those claims are so very rarely made falsely that they should be taken very seriously. But what about claims that a man/woman made sexual jokes or "inappropriate" innuendo? Certainly they can be cause for concern if the accused is someone who has…

He was actively avoided by the women of the MIT media Lab. That speaks a lot just by itself. Flirtation is game around boundaries. When you overstep once, society/the woman will look over it. If you do all the time you will be labeled and avoided. Maybe he applies his stubbornness to everything in life. Which can have outcomes from the awesomeness of a FSF, to isolation or to a lifelong sentence in a prison. Depends…

The fact that a person was ostracized does not make them guilty of some unforgivable transgression. Without concrete accusations, we really can't evaluate what the truth is here, and afaik nobody has made any concrete accusations other than some socially inept jokes.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's toxic about this? Two perfectly sensible points of view and you think Mr. X is dangerous to be around? Not sure where the word "dangerous" comes from. Just to explain things. If you tell people at work that it's stupid to believe in god, you are probably going to get fired, and rightly so. It's not dangerous, but it is toxic (belittling people for their religious beliefs).

Toxic means dangerous.

"Toxic" does not mean "dangerous" in this context. The lingustic phenomenon is called polysemy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysemy

It's like how when I "execute" a program, you understand that I am not killing the program as punishment. Even though the word "execute" has that meaning, it only applies in other contexts.

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