Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#291

Post by spiritplumber » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 5:56 AM UTC

gizmo686 wrote: post #206

Avshalom wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a lot of autistic people and they're all scrupulously kind and emotionally intelligent. The idea that autistic people are assholes is an artifact of every other gamer on the internet self diagnosing themselves with aspergers in the 00s and then using that as an excuse to be un-introspectively cruel to each other.

Diagnosed asperg here; would probably be autistic if I got diagnosed today. If I appear scrupulously kind to you, it is because I am compensating. If I appear emotionally intelligent to you, it is because I had to learn what is literally instinct to most people. At least for me, I am able to compensate effectively and pass in most social situations, but it is exhausting. When I read RMS's writing that lead to the con…

So much this. Thanks for putting it in words better than I would have

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#292

Post by higerordermap » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 5:57 AM UTC

wishdasher wrote: post #152

bigtones wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Selam Jie Gano, a female at MIT when he worked there wrote: “There is no single person that is so deserving of praise their comments deprecating others should be allowed to slide. Particularly when those comments are excuses about rape, assault, and child sex trafficking.”

If you read her post, she was an undergraduate in Mechanical Engineering, and by her own admittance did not ever work nor interact with RMS at MIT.

Typical wokeism

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#293

Post by sellyme » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 6:00 AM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #143

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why would someone choose to be an ass - or generally choose to be unlikable?

It's usually a matter of priorities. Neurodivergent/autistic people are usually unaware that what they say could cause offense: they lack either the emotional capacity to feel those emotions themselves, or the ability to empathize and predict that other people will feel them. Assholes know, they just care about other things more. They might throw their coworker under the bus for a promotion. Or they'll sexually haras…

> Or they care more about being right than being diplomatic.

This doesn't seem like particularly assholeish behaviour.

Caring more about being perceived as right (even when erroneously), sure, but if the person is actually right of course they should care more about that than diplomacy. Surely we have enough examples demonstrating the pitfalls of fostering a culture where the truth can be ignored if you don't like it.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#294

Post by higerordermap » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 6:07 AM UTC

nicklecompte wrote: post #76

SilverRed wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way is RMS a bad person? He has always seemed pretty honest and well intentioned. Its just he doesn't know when to shut his mouth or which hills are worth dying on.

I will say his “opinions” on child rape and children with disabilities are despicable and immoral, and not just a matter of him being eccentric. While he might sincerely believe such things that is hardly an endorsement of his character. But it’s not just his horrible opinions: for decades he constantly harassed women at MIT (students and faculty), especially teenagers. The details are really quite gross: https://sel…

> He literally used to have a mattress on the floor of his office. He kept the door to his office open, to proudly showcase that mattress and all the implications that went with it.

As someone who is not native speaker, what does "implications" mean exactly here? Little confused.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#295

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 6:10 AM UTC

tadfisher wrote: post #225

numbers_guy wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"making women uncomfortable" Right wtf does that mean? Clearly there was no actual sexual harassment. So you mean he was ugly and hit on you once? God forbid. We need to fire this man and make sure in the future that only attractive men are allowed to act like men lest we make the women feel uncomfortable.

This may be referring to the widespread rumor/account of RMS propositioning women for sex in his office at MIT, where he kept a mattress. I have no idea if this is true.

[deleted]

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#296

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 6:12 AM UTC

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #8

I think it is strange that, on the one hand, the tech world has been advocating for the rights of neurodivergent people – society should accept that people on the autism spectrum are different and that’s OK. But at the same time RMS has been attacked for some statements very probably stemming from his autism that, while they may seem a bit shocking and at odds with the mainstream, were not illegal or intentionally of…

Being “neurodivergent” isn’t a license to hurt people. Yes, it is a reason to refrain from punishing someone, because punishment requires guilt. It isn’t a reason not to take the steps necessary to protect others, such as not putting them in a position of power.

Example: it doesn’t make sense to punish a cat that eats your parrot, because that’s what cats do. It does make sense to lock the door between the cat and the parrot.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#297

Post by nostrademons » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 6:14 AM UTC

gotostatement wrote: post #226

nostrademons wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's usually a matter of priorities. Neurodivergent/autistic people are usually unaware that what they say could cause offense: they lack either the emotional capacity to feel those emotions themselves, or the ability to empathize and predict that other people will feel them. Assholes know, they just care about other things more. They might throw their coworker under the bus for a promotion. Or they'll sexually haras…

Not to derail the conversation but I find it amusing to put sexual harassment in the same sentence as not paying rent

I find it amusing that I can't tell whether you mean sexual harassment is dramatically more serious than not paying rent or not paying rent is dramatically more serious than sexual harassment.

Both examples - really all of the examples other than "selling drugs to children", which is from Breaking Bad - are taken from real-world conversations with people that basically said "What a jerk!" The person complaining about their non-paying tenant basically accepts sexual harassment as how the world works. The person (people really, it's a composite of a half-dozen or so conversations) complaining about the sexual harassers would likely find nothing wrong with a tenant skipping out on rent. Both are women, though a generation apart.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#298

Post by joshuamorton » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 6:15 AM UTC

sellyme wrote: post #293

nostrademons wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's usually a matter of priorities. Neurodivergent/autistic people are usually unaware that what they say could cause offense: they lack either the emotional capacity to feel those emotions themselves, or the ability to empathize and predict that other people will feel them. Assholes know, they just care about other things more. They might throw their coworker under the bus for a promotion. Or they'll sexually haras…

> Or they care more about being right than being diplomatic. This doesn't seem like particularly assholeish behaviour. Caring more about being perceived as right (even when erroneously), sure, but if the person is actually right of course they should care more about that than diplomacy. Surely we have enough examples demonstrating the pitfalls of fostering a culture where the truth can be ignored if you don't like it…

This is entirely contextual.

It's also possible to be both correct and diplomatic, and to criticize diplomatically. Failure to do so (often from a perspective that being right means one need not worry about diplomacy) is assholery.

Note that this is also somewhat self fulfilling. If you do end up being wrong, you can not admit that, as it would make your behavior inexcusable, so even when incorrect, you feel the need to fight and bully the people correcting you, in hopes that they go away.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#299

Post by nostrademons » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 6:16 AM UTC

sellyme wrote: post #293

nostrademons wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's usually a matter of priorities. Neurodivergent/autistic people are usually unaware that what they say could cause offense: they lack either the emotional capacity to feel those emotions themselves, or the ability to empathize and predict that other people will feel them. Assholes know, they just care about other things more. They might throw their coworker under the bus for a promotion. Or they'll sexually haras…

> Or they care more about being right than being diplomatic. This doesn't seem like particularly assholeish behaviour. Caring more about being perceived as right (even when erroneously), sure, but if the person is actually right of course they should care more about that than diplomacy. Surely we have enough examples demonstrating the pitfalls of fostering a culture where the truth can be ignored if you don't like it…

These are all examples where one party in the interaction has come away from it saying "What a jerk!"

I'm particularly partial to being right on the Internet rather than diplomatic, so I'll cop to being an asshole. But I wanted to make the point that different people have vastly different definitions of "asshole". Some people will recognize themselves in the examples; others will recognize the person they can't stand. Sometimes those people are one and the same.

Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

#300

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 6:17 AM UTC

jolux wrote: post #287

seba_dos1 wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you don't understand those power imbalances, you are bound to do harm. That's not a bad point. But then it turns out that it's not really connected to the statements about Minsky, is it? > Somebody who doesn't understand that is not fit to be a leader. This is stretching it way too far, since this assumes that understanding of power in hypothetical scenario that doesn't connect to yourself somehow translates to…

> That's not a bad point. But then it turns out that it's not really connected to the statements about Minsky, is it? The statements about Minsky are harmful. What reason is there to be coming to somebody’s defense when they are credibly accused of something like that? Frankly I don’t want friends who would react like Stallman did if I were to be accused as seriously as Minsky has been. People who are going to do har…

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