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Internet Explorer is evil (1996)

toastytech.com

81–85 of 85 posts

Re: Internet Explorer is evil (1996)

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. But on the flip side, technologies like virtual machines and containers have gone a long way to solve that in a better way.

Who uses those for desktop applications? Even if I need a VM for something coding-related, it’s almost too much of a pain to set up because AFAIK there still aren’t many quick provisioning tools for e.g. VMWare. And I can guarantee that 99.9% of users have never even heard of Docker.

> Who uses those for desktop applications?

I do.

> AFAIK there still aren’t many quick provisioning tools for e.g. VMWare

I use VirtualBox. I boot just about any Linux distribution's live Desktop image without any hard drive attached (so, ramdisk only). Then curl a script to download and install any dependencies. After a few minutes I'm off to the races.

Re: Internet Explorer is evil (1996)

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who uses those for desktop applications? Even if I need a VM for something coding-related, it’s almost too much of a pain to set up because AFAIK there still aren’t many quick provisioning tools for e.g. VMWare. And I can guarantee that 99.9% of users have never even heard of Docker.

> Who uses those for desktop applications? I do. > AFAIK there still aren’t many quick provisioning tools for e.g. VMWare I use VirtualBox. I boot just about any Linux distribution's live Desktop image without any hard drive attached (so, ramdisk only). Then curl a script to download and install any dependencies. After a few minutes I'm off to the races.

I use it too. You have to have that curl script (not a default user experience), manually mount the ISO (and have it downloaded), and then you risk losing all of your application state if the machine crashes since there is no storage. Seems like a pretty terrible experience. Why don't we have something like Vagrant where you can quickly provision a VM from the command line following a template?

Re: Internet Explorer is evil (1996)

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who uses those for desktop applications? I do. > AFAIK there still aren’t many quick provisioning tools for e.g. VMWare I use VirtualBox. I boot just about any Linux distribution's live Desktop image without any hard drive attached (so, ramdisk only). Then curl a script to download and install any dependencies. After a few minutes I'm off to the races.

I use it too. You have to have that curl script (not a default user experience), manually mount the ISO (and have it downloaded), and then you risk losing all of your application state if the machine crashes since there is no storage. Seems like a pretty terrible experience. Why don't we have something like Vagrant where you can quickly provision a VM from the command line following a template?

> You have to have that curl script (not a default user experience), manually mount the ISO (and have it downloaded)

What? I made my own script. I don't need to mount any ISO.

> you risk losing all of your application state if the machine crashes since there is no storage

That's a feature given that apps these days insist on being in a browser with cloud storage, there's no loss here.

> Why don't we have something like Vagrant where you can quickly provision a VM from the command line following a template?

That'd be great, actually. I'd do it if I knew Vagrant better. The biggest blocker for me using Vagrant is that it uses Ruby. Give me Vagrant in something like Bash instead. Or like docker-compose.

Re: Internet Explorer is evil (1996)

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But nobody chose the alternatives. Java or single operating system applications were the alternative. Where would we be today if you couldn't swap between Mac and Windows laptops -- or worse, had to have both -- because you depended on applications that had no common operating system? The reason we can use linux as a desktop is because of web applications. Now, it's possible that we could have ended up with Web Start…

>Java or single operating system applications were the alternative. Not really - you could write cross-platform GUI applications from a single code base in 1996 if you wanted to without using Java. It was unpleasant, but it was absolutely possible. >Where would we be today if you couldn't swap between Mac and Windows laptops -- or worse, had to have both -- because you depended on applications that had no common oper…

> Not really - you could write cross-platform GUI applications from a single code base in 1996 if you wanted to without using Java. It was unpleasant, but it was absolutely possible.

Right - as seen by Netscape. We can also speak about codeweavers and others we have, but in '96, those were out of reach by all but the largest applications. (Pagemaker, word, etc.) However, the honest truth is that web apps were an order of magnitude cheaper for anything that wasn't desktop-heavy in 1996.

Again, worse is better.

> Python and Java are relatively painless in this regard.

Does your user have the right version of python? Are you bundling python with your application? I haven't worked with pyinstaller - it might be better today, but

And as far as writing python gui applications... Tkinter and WxPython are ugly. PyQt and PyGtk, last I looked at it, was painful and effectively meant knowing C++, and Qt licensing from non-oss is rough. Jython is punting the java problem above. In what world is this not painless?

I wrote a JavaFX app just for myself a bit back because I didn't want the overhead of Electron for my simple app. The experience in bundling it for each was not straightforward, especially with post Java 9. Jpackage and jlink and graalvm exist today, but the work around them are not as straightforward as getting a webapp up and running.

The experience does not, by its very nature, have to be worse than web applications, but we've had two orders of magnitude in engineering effort to make the web application developer experience better. In 1996, even with as small as the internet was at that point, enterprise application deployment was so painful that web applications were a giant competitive advantage.

Re: Internet Explorer is evil (1996)

#85
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember some web developers would deliberately build for quirks mode because it was a stable target, unlike the always shifting standards mode.

For better or for worse, IE6 lived on, and on, and on for far too long with no changes. A bigger concern than the changing standards mode in other browsers was the fact that IE6 just wouldn’t die. I had people challenging me “why are you developing for Firefox first and then adapting your app to work on IE? Shouldn’t you be doing it the other way around?” Over 10 years later those apps I built are still working great…

Right. In hospitals there was a very popular medical imaging web information system, GE, Maybe? It rendered with an ActiveX control embedded in IE6. It didn't work in IE7.

So a lot of customers I worked with couldn't move past IE6. "No way, everybody need to be able to see those XRays images."

We even tried, without success, to organize the quick development of some sort of replacement for that, umm, "legacy" ActiveX control.

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