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Whales in 19th century shared information about ship attacks

theguardian.com

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Re: Whales in 19th century shared information about ship attacks

#11
post #8

> As Whitehead observes, whale culture is many millions of years older than ours. Oh? How old is our culture? What were whales doing a million years ago that primates weren't that qualifies as culture?

Joseph Henrich, a professor of human biological evolution as Harvard, has some pretty good theories on the subject. He defines culture as, ”the large body of practices, techniques, heuristics, tools, motivations, values, and beliefs that we all acquire while growing up, mostly by learning from other people.” He estimates that our ability to use culture started at perhaps a million or so years ago, maybe a bit more, m…

I think we keep torturing ourselves by forgetting our own language. Whales do not have a culture. They may be intelligent and social creatures, they may communicate, but they don't have civilization, art, morals, laws, and the practices for developing and improving these things in the minds of our children.

The origin of the word is to cultivate, from Latin, and implies building and transmission. Familial training in whale pods for feeding techniques is not the same thing. It seemingly echoes some facets of the immensely more complex concept we call culture, but saying that of whales is reductionist in way that isn't useful for clear thought.

Perhaps we can blame modern dictionaries, because the older ones shed more light on the matter: https://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/culture

Re: Whales in 19th century shared information about ship attacks

#12
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joseph Henrich, a professor of human biological evolution as Harvard, has some pretty good theories on the subject. He defines culture as, ”the large body of practices, techniques, heuristics, tools, motivations, values, and beliefs that we all acquire while growing up, mostly by learning from other people.” He estimates that our ability to use culture started at perhaps a million or so years ago, maybe a bit more, m…

I think we keep torturing ourselves by forgetting our own language. Whales do not have a culture. They may be intelligent and social creatures, they may communicate, but they don't have civilization, art, morals, laws, and the practices for developing and improving these things in the minds of our children. The origin of the word is to cultivate, from Latin, and implies building and transmission. Familial training in…

Sure, whales cannot have "culture" if we define it as "art, morals, laws" etc, by definition.

But we also need a word for a shared, passed-down learned experiences.

Such a thing has been observed in numerous species. For example, certain groups of gulls have learned to drop shells onto the rocks to smash them open. Similar gulls in other areas have not learned this. The ones that have have passed this lesson down for generations.

"Culture" to me sounds like a perfectly-good word for it. Cambridge Dictionary has the definition "the way of life of a particular people, esp. as shown in their ordinary behavior and habits."

Words can have multiple meanings in different contexts.

Re: Whales in 19th century shared information about ship attacks

#14
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joseph Henrich, a professor of human biological evolution as Harvard, has some pretty good theories on the subject. He defines culture as, ”the large body of practices, techniques, heuristics, tools, motivations, values, and beliefs that we all acquire while growing up, mostly by learning from other people.” He estimates that our ability to use culture started at perhaps a million or so years ago, maybe a bit more, m…

I think we keep torturing ourselves by forgetting our own language. Whales do not have a culture. They may be intelligent and social creatures, they may communicate, but they don't have civilization, art, morals, laws, and the practices for developing and improving these things in the minds of our children. The origin of the word is to cultivate, from Latin, and implies building and transmission. Familial training in…

> they don't have civilization, art, morals, laws, and the practices for developing and improving these things in the minds of our children

How can you be so sure of that?

Clearly they don't build roads, city halls, cinemaplexes, court houses, theatres, or boxing rings, and they didn't invent Spotify, but neither did you do any of that, and you have culture, don't you, even if you don't engage with any of those examples from 20th century homo sapien culture?

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.190337

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/130425-hu...

http://www.replicatedtypo.com/cultural-transmission-observed...

https://www.zoology.ubc.ca/~barrett/documents/Asoundapproach...

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096098221...

https://ceal.lab.uq.edu.au/project/cultural-transmission-hum...

Re: Whales in 19th century shared information about ship attacks

#15
The idea of whale intelligence is super interesting and I hope we do more to understand it. But the unfortunate pseudo-scientific need for the author to push the culture/religion angle becomes almost political at times, and seems like a stretch.

We should be able to determine intelligence/communication first without antromorphizing the notion of culture.

Some quotes from this article, and another linked by the author [1]

> Bound by communality, sperm-whale culture expresses a collective individuality: “We” and “us” may be more important than “I” and “me”. If that isn’t a lesson for their Homo sapiens cousins, I don’t know what is.

> Whales and dolphins observe rituals of the dead and exhibit grief. Could they, then, express spiritual sentiment, founded on values and belief – even a sense of religion?

> As Whitehead observes, whale culture is many millions of years older than ours. Perhaps we need to learn from them as they learned from us.

> Their culture is matrilinear, and information about the new dangers may have been passed on in the same way whale matriarchs share knowledge about feeding grounds

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jan/10/cultural-lives...

Re: Whales in 19th century shared information about ship attacks

#16

The idea of whale intelligence is super interesting and I hope we do more to understand it. But the unfortunate pseudo-scientific need for the author to push the culture/religion angle becomes almost political at times, and seems like a stretch. We should be able to determine intelligence/communication first without antromorphizing the notion of culture. Some quotes from this article, and another linked by the author…

> Bound by communality, sperm-whale culture expresses a collective individuality: “We” and “us” may be more important than “I” and “me”. If that isn’t a lesson for their Homo sapiens cousins, I don’t know what is.

For better or worse, people are individuals, not members of a collective. Collectives of people don't work, and it isn't for a lack of trying. People aren't whales or bees in a beehive.

That doesn't mean, however, that people can't organize. Under free markets, people organize well and effectively, but they still organize based on self interest, not self sacrifice.

Re: Whales in 19th century shared information about ship attacks

#17

The idea of whale intelligence is super interesting and I hope we do more to understand it. But the unfortunate pseudo-scientific need for the author to push the culture/religion angle becomes almost political at times, and seems like a stretch. We should be able to determine intelligence/communication first without antromorphizing the notion of culture. Some quotes from this article, and another linked by the author…

> Bound by communality, sperm-whale culture expresses a collective individuality: “We” and “us” may be more important than “I” and “me”. If that isn’t a lesson for their Homo sapiens cousins, I don’t know what is. For better or worse, people are individuals, not members of a collective. Collectives of people don't work, and it isn't for a lack of trying. People aren't whales or bees in a beehive. That doesn't mean, h…

Collectives of people don't work

The existence of armies and corporations suggests otherwise. I think you may be over-stretching the meaning of the term here to suggest some sort of entity that displaces individual cognition.

Re: Whales in 19th century shared information about ship attacks

#18

> As Whitehead observes, whale culture is many millions of years older than ours. Oh? How old is our culture? What were whales doing a million years ago that primates weren't that qualifies as culture?

Whales can communicate with dolphins as well as other caetacians of various species. Can you communicate with chimpanzees or apes? It is quite possible that, via communication, whale culture actually is millions of years older than ours...kept alive by communicating with species as they evolve.

> Can you communicate with chimpanzees or apes?

Sure. This was well documented by a movie in the 1960s. The apes were at first quite surprised that humans could talk.

Re: Whales in 19th century shared information about ship attacks

#19

The idea of whale intelligence is super interesting and I hope we do more to understand it. But the unfortunate pseudo-scientific need for the author to push the culture/religion angle becomes almost political at times, and seems like a stretch. We should be able to determine intelligence/communication first without antromorphizing the notion of culture. Some quotes from this article, and another linked by the author…

> Bound by communality, sperm-whale culture expresses a collective individuality: “We” and “us” may be more important than “I” and “me”. If that isn’t a lesson for their Homo sapiens cousins, I don’t know what is. For better or worse, people are individuals, not members of a collective. Collectives of people don't work, and it isn't for a lack of trying. People aren't whales or bees in a beehive. That doesn't mean, h…

>* For better or worse, people are individuals, not members of a collective. Collectives of people don't work, and it isn't for a lack of trying. People aren't whales or bees in a beehive.*

It is hard to see how whales are more collective than humans. Humans for most of their existence lived in collective family units, not unlike whales.

Re: Whales in 19th century shared information about ship attacks

#20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bound by communality, sperm-whale culture expresses a collective individuality: “We” and “us” may be more important than “I” and “me”. If that isn’t a lesson for their Homo sapiens cousins, I don’t know what is. For better or worse, people are individuals, not members of a collective. Collectives of people don't work, and it isn't for a lack of trying. People aren't whales or bees in a beehive. That doesn't mean, h…

Collectives of people don't work The existence of armies and corporations suggests otherwise. I think you may be over-stretching the meaning of the term here to suggest some sort of entity that displaces individual cognition.

Corporations are not collectives. They are organizations of people with self-interest, not selfless-interest.

Armies consist of people forced to cooperate, usually under threat of death or at least imprisonment. Such cooperation isn't very efficient, and indeed armies tend to be extremely wasteful of lives, treasure and property.

(Volunteer armies tend to be less wasteful of lives.)

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