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The world needs a software bill of materials

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Re: The world needs a software bill of materials

#41

I find it obscene that there are some important software tools that are often developed by one guy in his rented basement and big corporations make billions on the back of it without sharing a penny. We need a royalty system for open source software, so that these companies will have to start paying fair share to the developers they exploit. This will also ensure the overall safety as developers will have funds to do…

That's not Open Source software, that's proprietary software whose source you let people read.

If you want to force people to contribute back if they distribute, make your software Free, if you want to force people to pay you, make your software proprietary.

Re: The world needs a software bill of materials

#42

I find it obscene that there are some important software tools that are often developed by one guy in his rented basement and big corporations make billions on the back of it without sharing a penny. We need a royalty system for open source software, so that these companies will have to start paying fair share to the developers they exploit. This will also ensure the overall safety as developers will have funds to do…

This would be the end of open source software as we know it.

In a way yes, but currently it is not sustainable. I think we can do much better.

Re: The world needs a software bill of materials

#43
post #5

At least on first reading, I find this unpersuasive. He correctly lists a variety of problems. But he doesn't explain how his proposed solution, listing all the components of a technological product, would make a practical difference. Creating a list is valuable only if people a) read the list, b) recognize problems, and c) do something based on that. And for some of the examples he gives, it seems pretty obvious to…

Wouldn't having to advertise your out of date dependencies help to shame companies into upgrading on a reasonable schedule? So that upgrades are actually a priority and not just a thing that happens when literally everything else is already done?

It's not about "shaming", as these SBOMs might not be publicly available. But serious customers might have something to say when they realize that they are getting obsolete versions of components full of security issues.

Re: The world needs a software bill of materials

#44
post #5

At least on first reading, I find this unpersuasive. He correctly lists a variety of problems. But he doesn't explain how his proposed solution, listing all the components of a technological product, would make a practical difference. Creating a list is valuable only if people a) read the list, b) recognize problems, and c) do something based on that. And for some of the examples he gives, it seems pretty obvious to…

At my employer, we have a company-wide database of which package is installed in which version on each machine (several ten thousands of them). This allows the compliance department to follow known security issues, and they can then open tickets to the affected operating teams stating on which machines the software needs to be upgraded (or mitigations implemented), and they set deadlines based on vulnerability rating…

[deleted]

Re: The world needs a software bill of materials

#45

I find it obscene that there are some important software tools that are often developed by one guy in his rented basement and big corporations make billions on the back of it without sharing a penny. We need a royalty system for open source software, so that these companies will have to start paying fair share to the developers they exploit. This will also ensure the overall safety as developers will have funds to do…

I agree, but only to an extent. From my perspective OSS contributors are not "privileged developers" who can afford to commit their spare time. Yes, software development is a privileged career, but the privilege is not really pay, but education. Anybody in the world with access to the internet and a decent education can become a software developer. It is a highly competitive global market. My suggestion to any developer who is working something crazy like a 996 schedule is to look for opportunities elsewhere.

Re: The world needs a software bill of materials

#46

I find it obscene that there are some important software tools that are often developed by one guy in his rented basement and big corporations make billions on the back of it without sharing a penny. We need a royalty system for open source software, so that these companies will have to start paying fair share to the developers they exploit. This will also ensure the overall safety as developers will have funds to do…

> developed by one guy in his rented basement and big corporations make billions on the back of it without sharing a penny. We need a royalty system I mean isn’t this what a software patent is for? And you guys hate those. It’s how you are properly compensated for your inventions.

It has absolutely nothing to do with software patents, which are garbage, it's simple copyright. It's literally the way all proprietary software is distributed, sprinkled randomly with "open source spirit", with a vaguely specified micropayments system bolted on.

Giving away your software to small business and individuals has nothing to do with Open Source, Microsoft (among others) does it with some of its biggest products that it later charges your firstborn for after you get past a certain size. If you want to do this, just do it.

Re: The world needs a software bill of materials

#47

I find it obscene that there are some important software tools that are often developed by one guy in his rented basement and big corporations make billions on the back of it without sharing a penny. We need a royalty system for open source software, so that these companies will have to start paying fair share to the developers they exploit. This will also ensure the overall safety as developers will have funds to do…

> developed by one guy in his rented basement and big corporations make billions on the back of it without sharing a penny. We need a royalty system I mean isn’t this what a software patent is for? And you guys hate those. It’s how you are properly compensated for your inventions.

No, this is what copyrights and licensing are for. Patents were/are merely a silly exercise in language, exploitable primarily within the legal community.

Re: The world needs a software bill of materials

#48

I find it obscene that there are some important software tools that are often developed by one guy in his rented basement and big corporations make billions on the back of it without sharing a penny. We need a royalty system for open source software, so that these companies will have to start paying fair share to the developers they exploit. This will also ensure the overall safety as developers will have funds to do…

A different approach might be insurance markets. If I want to use component X, but the use of that component creates a risk (however small) that my business will be hacked, then my business could buy an insurance policy to cover that risk. If the software is maintained by an unpaid guy in a basement, the insurance is likely to be relatively expensive. The insurance company then has a strong incentive to pay basement…

I like this approach more because it incentivizes fulfillment of the risk interface without precluding flexibility in how that might be accomplished. I agree with your conclusion that a significant factor in improvements in safety have been seen in other industries with this approach -- align the incentive of not externalizing the risk and I think you'll see a lot of the misbehavior disappear because it's no longer profitable.

Re: The world needs a software bill of materials

#49
I think SBOM is interesting but it is totally absurd to think that SBOM is a _complete_ solution and/or comprehensive mitigation to Sunburst.

It is starting to make me mad people say this.

There is money on the line to create or enhance profitable software, so why not sell it that way?

I do not believe Solarwinds staff do not manage their dependencies or handle software better or worse than other companies. One attack vector had software that was properly digitally signed (think about _that_) and required cleverly backdooring developer workstation and infecting pipelines, then wiping traces clean. To mimic "if you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball" you can similarly say "if you can hack a build process to build digitally signed software to wipe your traces away, you can hack a SBOM process in a CD pipeline to say whatever the hell you want."

I am into rektor and sigstore, but even they must realize, like others, if you think about the event everyone is talking about and the real threat model, we are advocating for some speeds as a solid perimeter defense, these are not fortified walls of security design.

Technical people get this nuance, non-technical do not, so this kind of solution advocacy in these articles about Solarwinds as an example, really resonates with the latter, who make purchasing decisions and strategies. That is what worries me.

@ris has a key part of it right, imho, but you have to go bigger than that, and not think just open source (even as a FSFer, I say that).

> The solution to this problem is not bureaucracy. The solution is in the reproducible builds project, Guix and Nix.

My belief for 3 pieces, the third and most difficult is missing.

1. Yes, digitally signed SBOM (in regulation or software contracts, those in USG contracting will know this is coming down the pipe anyway, others will follow).

2. Requirements for reproducible builds and _not_ just open source software doing that (I am thinking a build escrow ecosystem will have to come soon so commercial entities can farm out in some way their pipeline to third parties to build the exact thing they sell, identically match, or huge flairs go up). Again, regulation and contracts will have to push this, but I wonder how crazy I sound when I write this.

3. So if 2 seems hard: we need more appsec competency on just on the dev side, but the build/deploy side. If you have industry security bodies (government, legal, energy, financial) or big employers themselves, they will _need_ to have people set up test labs with realistic deployments over time, watch how their software behaves, build a network of people, resources, and information exchanges. They need to be able to build the skilset, learn to find vulns and most importantly risky default misconfigurations combining multiple software packages individual vendors don't think about. They will need to discuss when software that is 1 month in use or 8 years of use for %80 of my industry sector's employer or 100% of one big employer's network through training and communication to go ask people through these exchanges "hey, these systems are acting weirdly. Is this weird, do others see this or know this mis-configuration could be exploited and people have seen this before?" I mean that kind of knowledge share.

If it does not, certainly re 2 and 3, SBOM will change some, but not all.

Re: The world needs a software bill of materials

#50
post #27

I like to see OS capable of full auditable logs of every app execution in the system (phone, mac, linux, windows) every .so, .dll use by each app and their hash/datetime creation. every files/dirs creation / write/read by which app every socket bind and connect requests. and other privilege operations There should be virus total type check on all app/.so/.dll. There should be allow/forbid LIST for exec,file/dir acces…

In Linux, not completely an answer to what you want auditd does a lot of it, but I rarely see it mentioned outside the government and military because of use of the STIG requirements.

And to your point: the UI sucks as it just text-based config in its own format and no one likes it or reads the outputted logs in my experience, even the SOC people who should know it.

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