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My Dad Published Lolita

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Re: My Dad Published Lolita

#71

Post by grey-area »

slibhb wrote: post #65
grey-area wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you recommend a good english translation? I've always wanted to read that poem. But, you're citing a book by Pushkin (or the anti-hero within?) as illustrative of Nabokov's worldview? While he affected amused disdain I think Nabokov did care about the world. Doesn't Onegin too? I think it's hard to square writing a book about a manipulative child abuser with being utterly disinterested in moral or social issues,…

I read James Falen's translation, which I thought was great. I don't speak Russian though so who knows. > But, you're citing a book by Pushkin (or the anti-hero within?) as illustrative of Nabokov's worldview? While he affected amused disdain I think Nabokov did care about the world. Doesn't Onegin too? That's my view, yeah. The figure here is the disaffected noble (or intellectual) who disdains society, creates his…

That's my view, yeah. The figure here is the disaffected noble (or intellectual) who disdains society, creates his own values, and eventually tragically fails partly because he can't totally leave society behind. I think Nabokov loves those characters. I don't think he's criticizing them.

Yes I agree he probably would have loved a character like that, though I think part of the attraction is the recognition of their inevitable tragic end (with the implicit recognition that they are mistaken about the world).

Humbert of course is not in that mould (or not entirely), and I'm not saying Nabokov would be so crass as to write himself into Humbert, but he shows a lot of sly sympathy for him in Lolita, and his other books also show a preoccupation with transgressive sexuality in children (Ada), it's a weird obsession.

Re: My Dad Published Lolita

#72

Post by grey-area »

lovelyviking wrote: post #70
grey-area wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you recommend a good english translation? I've always wanted to read that poem. But, you're citing a book by Pushkin (or the anti-hero within?) as illustrative of Nabokov's worldview? While he affected amused disdain I think Nabokov did care about the world. Doesn't Onegin too? I think it's hard to square writing a book about a manipulative child abuser with being utterly disinterested in moral or social issues,…

Looks like James Falen manages to preserve the feel of orgiginal rythm. Also Kozlov(1998) is close. You can check others by yourself there: English Versions of Pushkin’s Eugene Onegin: https://www.york.ac.uk/depts/maths/histstat/pml1/onegin/ It's hard to tell which one is the best, because I do not like the original ... too boring. I've tried it again today and it's boring again but today I have found that a few prim…

Thanks. Just found Nabokov's too, which looks interesting but ungainly (atypical for him).

Re: My Dad Published Lolita

#73

Post by buisi »

rsynnott wrote: post #19
buisi wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the world has reached a point where it is broadly understood that written erotica is freedom of speech and trying to ban it or make it stop is pointless. Unfortunately, this isn't entirely true, even today. https://www.vice.com/en/article/3a8nv3/canadian-author-charg... This is the most famous recent one. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/man-convicted-multiple-obscen... There is also a Texas Man, by the name of Thoma…

The Canadian one wasn’t convicted; the law was effectively ruled partially unconstitutional: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/yvan-godbout-acquitt... That is, arguably, the system working. Unfortunately, when things go to court, the system working often involves people getting hurt.

From what I know, it is getting appealed to a higher court, so yes and no. The verdict will be in sooner or later, and at that point, we will know. But, I'll also argue that this never should have gotten to a trial, it is appalling that the police think this is something someone should get charged for to begin with.

The other case is also going up for appeal, from what I've read, although I don't know how the higher court will respond to it.

Re: My Dad Published Lolita

#74

Post by smegma2 »

epx wrote: post #46

I liked Lolita because it was written from the point of view of the perpetrator. Can’t remember many other examples - “The Scarf” from Robert Bloch is one. I have doubts it would be published nowadays, too.

Another one is The Collector by Fowles. It reminded me a lot of Lolita, for example in both books the narrator refuses to take responsibility for their actions.

Re: My Dad Published Lolita

#75

Post by buisi »

nanoscopic wrote: post #16
buisi wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the world has reached a point where it is broadly understood that written erotica is freedom of speech and trying to ban it or make it stop is pointless. Unfortunately, this isn't entirely true, even today. https://www.vice.com/en/article/3a8nv3/canadian-author-charg... This is the most famous recent one. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/man-convicted-multiple-obscen... There is also a Texas Man, by the name of Thoma…

Alright. This is a fair point. I go way out of my way to discourage underage visitors to the erotica website I run, and I do agree that there is tremendous sensitivity in the current era towards the notion of anything sexual involving children. Despite that, I don't think such sensitivity is unreasonable. I do believe that children are sexual from quite an early age, and that that should be accepted and encouraged fr…

Some things which people write or draw are certainly repugnant, extremely repugnant, including some particular forms of hentai manga, and if someone were actually acting out the activities described within, then I would want them to go to prison for a very long time.

But, committing a terrible act, and writing about it from a fictional perspective are completely different things. I don't think people are so brainless as to blindly follow what is happening in a hentai manga.

Someone doesn't simply "become" the sort of person who would do that, just by consuming fictional material, and if they're using purely fictional material, it could be even argued they're actively avoiding it.

The actual risk factors for abuse (and not merely creating / consuming prohibited content) I know of are:

Some people have poor mental health. Being unable to express yourself and having to shut things in would not help. Luckily, we have many ways to improve someone's mental health. Mental health can also improve if someone has supportive friends. This could be considered the main factor.

There are people who look for substitutes for a partner and unscrupulously pick that.

Someone may be physically incapable of feeling anything to adults and only to children. A recent scientific paper said that some address their loneliness by creating dolls and talking to them to keep them company. Banning and prohibiting things might frustrate them, but it wouldn't actually solve anything, other than making it clear that they have nothing to lose.

I am sure there are other possible factors, but I don't think I have ever seen "I saw it in a book" mentioned as one. Even Dr. Seto, who is a leading expert in this area, believes that those who would abuse, are those who would have abused either way, irregardless of this content being available.

Re: My Dad Published Lolita

#76

Post by buisi »

devwastaken wrote: post #49
Duennepaper wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I do believe that children are sexual from quite an early age, and that that should be accepted and encouraged from a sexual wellness perspective." wtf?

What's wtf about it? It's biologically accurate. What they mean is you shouldn't tell a teen that sex is bad and evil and their instincts for sexual contact are not bad and evil.

I agree with your points, but the wording in the post is very vague. If they mean teens, they should say teens directly, rather than using the word "children" which is easy to misunderstand.

Re: My Dad Published Lolita

#77

Post by kayodelycaon »

grey-area wrote: post #52
kayodelycaon wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I did end up wondering how Nabokov could so completely imagine this world and this character, which was also troubling. As a writer, I have an extremely vivid imagination. Same with my friends who are writers. We all joke that our Google searches have us on every FBI watchlist that exist and a few that don’t. The same goes with many artists. Embracing creativity involves some degree of getting rid of self-censorshi…

Have you read this book? Every reader has their own interpretation of a text and the author's intent. Personally, looking back on Lolita I can say I'm a little uncomfortable with the level of empathy and identification the writer shows with Humbert Humbert, but I know the intention is to discomfit the reader by making them identify with a horrible character, so...

Many people make the mistake of thinking empathy and understanding are equivalent to sympathy and support.

Art (big A) is designed to make you feel and think. It is an experience.

Re: My Dad Published Lolita

#78

Post by nanoscopic »

buisi wrote: post #75
nanoscopic wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright. This is a fair point. I go way out of my way to discourage underage visitors to the erotica website I run, and I do agree that there is tremendous sensitivity in the current era towards the notion of anything sexual involving children. Despite that, I don't think such sensitivity is unreasonable. I do believe that children are sexual from quite an early age, and that that should be accepted and encouraged fr…

Some things which people write or draw are certainly repugnant, extremely repugnant, including some particular forms of hentai manga, and if someone were actually acting out the activities described within, then I would want them to go to prison for a very long time. But, committing a terrible act, and writing about it from a fictional perspective are completely different things. I don't think people are so brainless…

I agree that hentai manga can be very disgusting. Rape scenes involving children is a theme that is commonly available. Having set foot in a doujinshi shop in Akihabara ( down a random alley in the basement ), they are apparently also quite popular in Japan. The cover of many doujinshi ( of that variety ) are of undressed children in explicit poses. I would have snapped a photo of said shop if there weren't signs everywhere saying "no photos allowed", to show people just exactly how much this is a thing.

So long as the creators are sourcing their artistic style on imagination and/or non-sexual source art, I don't think there is any real harm being done, and therefore I personally believe such should still be legal. I do, though, question the purpose of it and agree that it is pretty disturbing content.

I disagree that you cannot become a twisted person by viewing sufficient twisted content. The perspective matters of course, but I could readily believe that an otherwise harmless pervert could become inclined to enacting harm against others after reading a sufficient amount of such content. The pervert has their fantasies enthralled, and thus begins to believe more-so that enacting things in the way described is acceptable.

In this way, I think the way the perverse content is depicted matters. If it is depicted in a way that makes it seem like wonderful fun to abuse others, then I agree it should become illegal. I also can't think of depictions that I would approve of myself and can only think of depictions less likely to encourage harm.

I agree with the idea that hentai manga provides an outlet for people who may enact their fantasies in reality if they did not have that outlet. The idea is that the hentai serves as a punching bag of sorts.

I could believe that some believe they can only be attracted to children and not to adults, but I don't think that justifies and means they have a right to view sexualized kids or art of it. I'd argue that such individuals are better off just enjoying normal manga and hentai instead of getting involved in hentai.

As I mentioned previously, I author erotica. One question I have asked myself many times is "Am I encouraging or causing others to engage in the fictional behavior I have imagined and written?" Having read the reviews of my writing by readers; I strongly believe the answer is "Yes. Whatever fictional content I create, should it be believable and seem sufficiently safe, will be enacted by readers as a result of learning about it."

The "readers should understand it is fiction and not enact the fantasy" excuse doesn't fly in my mind. Many readers will not understand that clearly, regardless of even being told to keep this in mind, and will still enact the fiction.

Re: My Dad Published Lolita

#79

Post by nanoscopic »

Duennepaper wrote: post #24
nanoscopic wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright. This is a fair point. I go way out of my way to discourage underage visitors to the erotica website I run, and I do agree that there is tremendous sensitivity in the current era towards the notion of anything sexual involving children. Despite that, I don't think such sensitivity is unreasonable. I do believe that children are sexual from quite an early age, and that that should be accepted and encouraged fr…

"I do believe that children are sexual from quite an early age, and that that should be accepted and encouraged from a sexual wellness perspective." wtf?

I understand how this will seem to be a screwy thing to say, but it is a reality and is something any parent deals with when their child grows old enough.

Once puberty hits children engage in some amount of sexual behavior, and that is natural. Many parents have to explain to their child not to masturbate in public for example.

What I am saying here is that telling your child "masturbation is sinful" is unhealthy. It is also unhealthy to tell your child "masturbate any time you want!" It is sort of like eating dessert in my mind. Occasionally, with moderation, is acceptable. All the time, incessantly, is problematic.

I am not, by the way, suggesting that adults become involved in the sexual activity of anyone underage. What I am saying is that parents should help their children ( by explaining things to them ) to be balanced and not fearful of their own sexuality. Life is difficult enough without being raised to be disgusted by your own feelings.

Re: My Dad Published Lolita

#80

Post by PhilosAccnting »

xwolfi wrote: post #63
PhilosAccnting wrote: post #61

I'm absolutely convinced that censorship takes one of two forms: 1. Cut out things, overstepping and taking some of the best that humanity has to offer. 2. Avoid cutting out things, leaving many people offended for a wide variety of possible reasons. The reason I believe Lolita is being questioned is because the pendulum has swung too far toward Type 1. The entire idea of a free society, though, is predicated on lots…

Lolita is only subversive for elderly church going moms who understand a man is subverting a child, anyway. I remember it as a lesson on self-control, child mindset (they are in a phase where they can manipulate dishonestly but also quickly move on like nothing has consequences), a road trip of the US, a lesson on obsessive passion, on one-sided escalation of obsession. I read it on the advice of my dad around 16, an…

I'm still trying to differentiate the difference between Western and American culture. As a general rule, the content that floats here about the rest of the world is either extremely stereotyped or with a severe agenda attached.

To the end of that, I believe almost everything in your last paragraph, with some clarifications as an American:

- Americans are highly ethnocentric relative to the rest of the world. It's because this country is the size of Europe, and its relative newness has made very little variance between, say, Kansas and Wyoming as opposed to, say, France and Germany. Thousands of years of horse-drawn travel have crafted your country's culture, while most of this country has had steam power, especially when you head westward. - The actual meaning of "Western Society", at least as I defaulted to using it, is to draw a political dichotomy to "Other Societies". Frankly, I think elements of all cultures are useful, but this two-party system over here removes any sense of subtlety to the dialogue. - I believe that protecting innocence is a losing bet, so I personally give my kids all the information as much as possible. To most Americans, that's offensive because they believe I'm somehow scarring them.

[1]https://gainedin.site/culture

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