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My Dad Published Lolita

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Re: My Dad Published Lolita

#61

Post by PhilosAccnting »

I'm absolutely convinced that censorship takes one of two forms:

1. Cut out things, overstepping and taking some of the best that humanity has to offer. 2. Avoid cutting out things, leaving many people offended for a wide variety of possible reasons.

The reason I believe Lolita is being questioned is because the pendulum has swung too far toward Type 1. The entire idea of a free society, though, is predicated on lots more Type 2.

Thus, I believe Western society is unsustainable as it stands. We'll either see much more censorship in the coming years, or a company/government will face such a huge public backlash on their censoring that the trend reverses course.

Re: My Dad Published Lolita

#62

Post by dang »

nxpnsv wrote: post #4

What a terrible cookie consent from

"Please don't complain about website formatting, back-button breakage, and similar annoyances. They're too common to be interesting. Exception: when the author is present. Then friendly feedback might be helpful."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: My Dad Published Lolita

#63

Post by xwolfi »

PhilosAccnting wrote: post #61

I'm absolutely convinced that censorship takes one of two forms: 1. Cut out things, overstepping and taking some of the best that humanity has to offer. 2. Avoid cutting out things, leaving many people offended for a wide variety of possible reasons. The reason I believe Lolita is being questioned is because the pendulum has swung too far toward Type 1. The entire idea of a free society, though, is predicated on lots…

Lolita is only subversive for elderly church going moms who understand a man is subverting a child, anyway.

I remember it as a lesson on self-control, child mindset (they are in a phase where they can manipulate dishonestly but also quickly move on like nothing has consequences), a road trip of the US, a lesson on obsessive passion, on one-sided escalation of obsession.

I read it on the advice of my dad around 16, and I had to admit this was absolute beauty, the main character being French like me helped also. There is nothing to censor, there is nothing to discuss: it can be read by children as a warning, it can be read by teenagers as a disturbing challenge, it can be read by adults as entertainment.

Only in the US do people discuss these things like it's a big deal, it's just the story of a lost man who got manipulated by a airhead child and fell in a criminal trap of his own making to end up with absolutely nothing to show for.

BTW western society doesn't exist. Americans should stop using this word to describe their own ways. We don't, everywhere west of China, agree on the definition of what is proper, what is censorship, what is society and how being west of China should impact how we group with others. So American society is unsustainable, but I'd like to argue that French society has an opinion on the balance of such things that works for us. It involves teaching limits openly and early, embrace free expression is a fantasy and explain why, and not shy away from re-discussing each instance of each issue together and publicly.

Re: My Dad Published Lolita

#64

Post by libraryatnight »

jfengel wrote: post #40
BayAreaEscapee wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My father reads voraciously. Whenever we talked about a book I was assigned in high school, he would say, "Literature is wasted on the young." Now I understand what he meant and I agree with him. I understand so much more of literature now that I am well into adulthood.

Literature, history, and math are all wasted on the young. We get exposed to a lot of things that we don't understand and can't appreciate, in the hopes that it will click for us later. I honestly don't know if that really works, or if it's just cargo cult. I do know that I considered my English classes, and now I run a Shakespeare theater troupe. Much of my goal there is to present the Shakespeare that would have ap…

Sometimes though one falls in love with these things young and it's a life long maturing and appreciation. When I re-read things I always find new things, or new perspectives. The nuances I understood at 25 didn't diminish the impact of a book on me at 15, the way reading it at 35 didn't make it seem like it was wasted on 25 year old me.

Re: My Dad Published Lolita

#65

Post by slibhb »

grey-area wrote: post #57
slibhb wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know the intention is to discomfit the reader by making them identify with a horrible character, so... That's not the intent of the author. Nabokov has absolutely no moral or social points to make. I didn't realize this until I read Eugene Onegin, which I take as the genesis of Nabokov's general perspective. Onegin is funny and ironic while still being emotionally affecting. Nabokov is much more in the "art for a…

Can you recommend a good english translation? I've always wanted to read that poem. But, you're citing a book by Pushkin (or the anti-hero within?) as illustrative of Nabokov's worldview? While he affected amused disdain I think Nabokov did care about the world. Doesn't Onegin too? I think it's hard to square writing a book about a manipulative child abuser with being utterly disinterested in moral or social issues,…

I read James Falen's translation, which I thought was great. I don't speak Russian though so who knows.

> But, you're citing a book by Pushkin (or the anti-hero within?) as illustrative of Nabokov's worldview? While he affected amused disdain I think Nabokov did care about the world. Doesn't Onegin too?

That's my view, yeah. The figure here is the disaffected noble (or intellectual) who disdains society, creates his own values, and eventually tragically fails partly because he can't totally leave society behind. I think Nabokov loves those characters. I don't think he's criticizing them.

I am of course not saying you have to agree with Nabokov.

Re: My Dad Published Lolita

#66

Post by mod »

Animats wrote: post #56
mellosouls wrote: post #20

Actual title: How Would the Publishing World Respond to Lolita Today?

It's hard to imagine someone reviving Gigi [1] today. That was a Broadway musical (1973) and a movie (1958). "Thank Heaven For Little Girls: [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigi_%28musical%29 [2] https://youtu.be/2TqSyvdqn9c

And per the link, it was revived in 2015.

Re: My Dad Published Lolita

#67

Post by Animats »

mod wrote: post #66
Animats wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to imagine someone reviving Gigi [1] today. That was a Broadway musical (1973) and a movie (1958). "Thank Heaven For Little Girls: [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigi_%28musical%29 [2] https://youtu.be/2TqSyvdqn9c

And per the link, it was revived in 2015.

In a "squeaky cleaned up" version.[1] "Gigi is now 18, not 15. (And played by Vanessa Hudgens, age 26 at the time.) ... Recall Maurice Chevalier, playing the narrator, the suave silver fox Honoré Lachaille, singing “Thank Heaven for Little Girls” as he strolls through the Bois de Boulogne, eyeing young girls romping in the park. ... No doubt leading the list of Ms. Thomas’s chores was removing this song from the mouth of an elderly gentleman. It has now been cleverly bleached of lechery, reassigned to two female characters, Gigi’s grandmother, Mamita (Victoria Clark), and her Aunt Alicia (Dee Hoty), becoming an innocuous elegy for the fleeting nature of young girlhood."

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/09/theater/vanessa-hudgens-i...

Re: My Dad Published Lolita

#68

Post by systemvoltage »

Lolita is supposed to be a challenging piece. In this thread people are discussing the details, but the way I see this and I hope it’s supposed to be seen as is that there is a tremendous contrast between prose and motif. More than any other book ever written IMO. Prose is extraordinarily beautiful, motif is extraordinarily disgusting. It tears the reader apart, inside out. That’s art.

Re: My Dad Published Lolita

#69

Post by [deleted] »

slibhb wrote: post #65
grey-area wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you recommend a good english translation? I've always wanted to read that poem. But, you're citing a book by Pushkin (or the anti-hero within?) as illustrative of Nabokov's worldview? While he affected amused disdain I think Nabokov did care about the world. Doesn't Onegin too? I think it's hard to square writing a book about a manipulative child abuser with being utterly disinterested in moral or social issues,…

I read James Falen's translation, which I thought was great. I don't speak Russian though so who knows. > But, you're citing a book by Pushkin (or the anti-hero within?) as illustrative of Nabokov's worldview? While he affected amused disdain I think Nabokov did care about the world. Doesn't Onegin too? That's my view, yeah. The figure here is the disaffected noble (or intellectual) who disdains society, creates his…

[deleted]

Re: My Dad Published Lolita

#70

Post by lovelyviking »

grey-area wrote: post #57
slibhb wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know the intention is to discomfit the reader by making them identify with a horrible character, so... That's not the intent of the author. Nabokov has absolutely no moral or social points to make. I didn't realize this until I read Eugene Onegin, which I take as the genesis of Nabokov's general perspective. Onegin is funny and ironic while still being emotionally affecting. Nabokov is much more in the "art for a…

Can you recommend a good english translation? I've always wanted to read that poem. But, you're citing a book by Pushkin (or the anti-hero within?) as illustrative of Nabokov's worldview? While he affected amused disdain I think Nabokov did care about the world. Doesn't Onegin too? I think it's hard to square writing a book about a manipulative child abuser with being utterly disinterested in moral or social issues,…

Looks like James Falen manages to preserve the feel of orgiginal rythm. Also Kozlov(1998) is close. You can check others by yourself there:

English Versions of Pushkin’s Eugene Onegin: https://www.york.ac.uk/depts/maths/histstat/pml1/onegin/

It's hard to tell which one is the best, because I do not like the original ... too boring.

I've tried it again today and it's boring again but today I have found that a few primitive tricks were used many times when rythm doesn't work.

I think the common view about beauty of the poem is greatly exaggerated.

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