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Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

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Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#261

Post by CameronNemo »

paulmd wrote: post #112
CameronNemo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are we optimizing the case of users browsing bad websites? Why not cater to good websites instead? Isn't a notification receiver of the most important uses of a phone?

> Why are we optimizing the case of users browsing bad websites? Why not cater to good websites instead? I would say it's not so much optimizing for good websites vs bad websites, as optimizing for real-world websites. Real-world websites are overwhelmingly shitty, push dark patterns, invade users' privacy, abuse any APIs they are given access to, etc. Limiting the amount of things they can do is an enhancement to th…

Don't real world native apps do the same thing? Abuse APIs, push dark patterns, track users? There has to be a better way to prevent abuse other than "don't let this particular type of app use push notifications".

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#262

Post by sp332 »

imron wrote: post #115
heavyset_go wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Push API allows for efficient push notifications without polling, I believe, but don't quote me on it. The problem is displaying notifications like you would a message notification on iOS.

> The problem is displaying notifications like you would a message notification on iOS. As an iPhone user, this being difficult for developers is a highly desirable feature!

It would be opt-in like on every other platform, isn't that enough? As heavyset_go said, it's a huge pain when a user wants a notification and can't enable one.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#263

Post by zamadatix »

hyko wrote: post #121

Apple are pretty much the only humanist big tech company. They’re a bulwark against all sorts of absolute nonsense that would reduce the technological landscape to more of a dismal-looking, utilitarian panopticon than it already is.

The only thing Safari has to do is be good enough people can use it as a web browser but bad enough it can't replace apps. It doesn't need to ensure user data gets collected and sold or push ads or any other business model - it just needs to protect the 10s of billions of passive income from the app store.

As a result it's free to make whatever choices make sense for the user as long as they aren't related to that. I wouldn't call it "humanist" because of that just a different revenue model.

The same is true for the rest of Apple, it didn't get to a 2,000,000,000,000 market cap because it's humanist it got there with unique ways and focus on how to make money. Probably less bad than how Google does it though I don't consider that the bar for doing good.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#264

Post by sircastor »

gkbrk wrote: post #169
bleachedsleet wrote: post #37

I love Safari as a browser, but I hate the fact that it neuters the web and makes it feel much less powerful. Web Bluetooth and webUSB are ignored by Safari and unsupported. Notification support is lacking last I checked. No PWA functionality to speak of and webNFC won’t be added. Extensions are lacking largely due to being basically native apps that bring with them all the cost and overhead of being such. As a brows…

Web Bluetooth and Web USB, along with other useless things like Web Battery that Google loves don't make the web more powerful. It only serves to make the web more bloated and user hostile. And making new browsers that much harder to implement while taking the time of existing competitors. As a user I have never needed or wanted web bluetooth or web usb, and I have never seen a person in real life that uses these eit…

I want them. I’ve wanted to build out hardware interactive controls, and use them in a web app. Building a web app is an easy and universal platform.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#265

Post by onion2k »

prepend wrote: post #242
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that you don't represent everybody, yet the browser gives you a choice instead of forcing you to do something.

The point is that few want this and Chrome make a default behavior that inconveniences lots of users. Chrome should default not to prompt. Safari estimates that no one wants this, and I suspect they’re right.

Chrome should default not to prompt.

It absolutely should. Making the default "never prompt" would lead to websites prompting users to modify their preferences and change security settings. We do not want to normalize that behaviour. It would be a security nightmare. The defaults might be a little annoying for users (who can switch it to never prompt if they want to) but keeping average users who do want email or chat notifications safe online should take priority.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#266

Post by littlestymaar »

sbuk wrote: post #253
littlestymaar wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Displaying real-time targeted ads (1) isn't Apple Business for sure. Selling you health data to health insurance companies (2) fits their strategy much more, and by accepting their privacy policy, you allowed them to do it. I don't consider (2) less harmful than (1).

Got any evidence, tangible or otherwise, of (2)?

In French[1] (2014) linking to a Bloomberg link behind a paywall[2].

There's no evidence that they have done anything like this yet, but they at least considered it and their privacy policies allows it as soon as they decide it's worth it. And you wouldn't necessarily know it.

Just because a company's marketing says they respect your privacy doesn't mean they do, especially when their privacy policy says they can.

[1]: https://www.numerama.com/magazine/30323-apple-approche-les-m...

[2]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-08-21/wear-this...

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#267

Post by bleachedsleet »

gkbrk wrote: post #169
bleachedsleet wrote: post #37

I love Safari as a browser, but I hate the fact that it neuters the web and makes it feel much less powerful. Web Bluetooth and webUSB are ignored by Safari and unsupported. Notification support is lacking last I checked. No PWA functionality to speak of and webNFC won’t be added. Extensions are lacking largely due to being basically native apps that bring with them all the cost and overhead of being such. As a brows…

Web Bluetooth and Web USB, along with other useless things like Web Battery that Google loves don't make the web more powerful. It only serves to make the web more bloated and user hostile. And making new browsers that much harder to implement while taking the time of existing competitors. As a user I have never needed or wanted web bluetooth or web usb, and I have never seen a person in real life that uses these eit…

I have a Ledger Nano X I use for storing an ADA wallet on. It interfaces over webUSB with most ADA wallet managers. I also have a Pax Era Pro vape pen that can only interface over web Bluetooth because Apple banned their native app. These two uses alone require I always have at least one Chromium browser installed. Niche, yes, but I also know I’m not alone here in finding uses for these APIs.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#268

Post by GekkePrutser »

heavyset_go wrote: post #17

> (Conversely, if Safari refuses to implement some alleged 'feature', it becomes much less useful even if Chrome does implement it.) The fact that Apple refuses to implement basic features in mobile Safari that Firefox and Chrome have had for years now, and the fact that they refuse to allow other browser engines on iOS is the reason why we can't have nice things like progressive web apps. I recently worked on a heal…

Yeah it's strange because PWAs were Apple's original plan for iOS apps :)They didn't yet exist under the PWA name but this was definitely what they were aiming at.

But Safari will never be a serious option for me. I want the same browser on all my systems and I use a lot more than Mac and iOS. So Firefox it is.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#269

Post by danShumway »

mrtksn wrote: post #193
watermelon0 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PWA cab be 'installed' to the device, similarly to 'Add to home screen' option. It would be reasonable to allow notifications only to installed PWA, and not just any website you visit.

It seems like the that’s the obvious solution at first but if you think about it, this will make every site ever to greet you with “add to home screen” popup. Just like aggressively trying to make you install their app from the appstore. The number will increase since there won’t be a barrier of entry. Then there would be people who are trying to make you "install" their PWA at any cost, then sell their install base…

Right now, if you go to any website on mobile, you get a big popup telling you to install a native app.

What would be different?

Getting asked to enable a browser feature is not more annoying than getting asked to exit the app and install a brand new native app with worse sandboxing and privacy. It's at most the same level of annoying.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#270

Post by GekkePrutser »

Google234 wrote: post #130
yunohn wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I don’t want Who are you? And why does only your absolute opinion matter, when others are asking for a choice?

I’m the same as the the users of Firefox who deny 99% of notifications https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2019/11/04/restricti... We are the the 99%

For me on Android Firefox website push notifications don't even work. I thought this was by design. Am I doing something wrong? There's a couple of sites where I really do want this.
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