Earlier quoted context omitted.
Advancing in society by demonstrating your commitment to the proclaimed values, through ratting out your less committed neighbors, or even falsely accusing them of being less committed.
Do you think it makes a difference, though, if in one case the system was installed and enforced by a minority in a top-down fashion without general population having a say in it, whereas in the other it appears to be organically arising in society?
Howling in Unison: The Soviet Writers' Union
31–40 of 51 posts
Re: Howling in Unison: The Soviet Writers' Union
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wasn't talking about how did these two systems come up with their values, but about how similar they are in enforcing them.
Yes, I too remember the many people executed by overeager woke committees on Twitter. Like, seriously? People being shamed into getting fired or quitting is the same thing as death to you?
Re: Howling in Unison: The Soviet Writers' Union
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
Advancing in society by demonstrating your commitment to the proclaimed values, through ratting out your less committed neighbors, or even falsely accusing them of being less committed.
Do you think it makes a difference, though, if in one case the system was installed and enforced by a minority in a top-down fashion without general population having a say in it, whereas in the other it appears to be organically arising in society?
Re: Howling in Unison: The Soviet Writers' Union
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
What I recall from my history lessons is that the top-down system you refer to was the end stage of a revolution that arose organically across the population just a few decades earlier. Well, "organically". As all such things go, there were real problems affecting a lot of people, but once the movement to fix those problems gained steam, it got quickly leveraged and taken over by various political and economic groups…
I believe, while the general population’s suffering has clearly contributed to the original cause of the revolution, it did not in case of the subsequent forced top-down censorship system, which was established purely by and for the new elites to maintain power. I like to think that distinguishes it from the current “woke” culture, but maybe I’m mistaken and not able to notice a coordinated manipulation of public opi…
Agreed. We're not there yet, and perhaps (hopefully) we'll never be - that's why I alluded to the times before October Revolution, back when USSR itself didn't exist yet, but the culture that gave rise to it did.
> but maybe I’m mistaken and not able to notice a coordinated manipulation of public opinion by some hidden force. It smells of a conspiracy theory, though.
I'm not claiming that either. You're right - it would be a conspiracy theory. I don't believe there's any large-scale coordination at play. But I do believe in lots of small-scale coordination in fierce competition - another similarity to pre-revolution Russia. Much like back then (and always, in general), people aspiring for power and/or money try to get ahead on the platform of whatever is the most heated social issue. They co-opt the movement, adopt the banners, and compete against both the establishment / countermovers and other upstarts ostensibly on the same side. I think we can see this today, with how politicians, media and corporations get involved. It's not because they want to achieve the original goals of the movement - they want to use it to gain power and/or money.
I think the above is somewhat obvious and universal point - politics and economy seems to always work like this. The banners change; the behavior, not so much.
Thinking more about it, I see one similarity between current "culture war" and the USSR, which may be why 'Andrew_nenakhov compared the current situation to USSR, and not to Russia at the turn of XX century. Even in USSR, the censorship and behavior policing wasn't binary - either you're a Good Commie or on a train to a gulag. More commonly, if you weren't red enough, you would find yourself denied opportunities and dignity. Not in the Party? Your kid won't get into the university. Someone said you're not fully committed to the Fatherland? That job in the factory is not for you anymore. Oh, and your neighbors don't want to talk with you now - mostly because they're afraid to be tarnished by association. Yes, there was a lot of violence and torture and death involved in policing the citizens, but also a lot of such softer pressure. Perhaps even more of it in the Soviet satellite states.
Where it connects to the modern "culture war" is that the same social policing seems to be using the market instead of top-down state control. In the USSR, your foreman would kick you out because they're afraid of the head of local Party branch, who was afraid of their political officer, and so on, all the way to Stalin, in a top-down hierarchy of threat. Today, people fall in line because they're afraid of getting fired because of a Twitter mob; their employers are afraid of the Twitter mob causing the company to lose investors or market share.
This is a new factor. A distributed, stochastic, persistent threat. Arguably not possible before social media. There's no central coordination required, but the effects are as predictable as if there was an actual dictator on top of things.
Re: Howling in Unison: The Soviet Writers' Union
#35I enjoyed the article until the inevitable comparison to current trends. It's like reading a retro article. "Holding people in power to account is EXACTLY WHAT THE COMMUNISTS WOULD Do. DON'T ASK HOW. Smoke Lucky Strike Brand cigarettes for that healthy asbestos glow. Vote Mondale. "
You know Mondale was a pro-labor Democrat [1] who, according to Wikipedia "supported consumer protection, fair housing, tax reform, and the desegregation of schools" [2]. Not sure why you want to set up negative associations around him. Probably the ignorant belief that everything in the past was evil and far-right. I can't blame you; our collective memory is getting fucked with. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/1984/01/2…
Do those laborers include the Nicaraguans (or Americans like Ben Linder) who were massacred by the Contras Mondale advocated funding for so that they could overthrow Nicaragua's democratically elected government?
Re: Howling in Unison: The Soviet Writers' Union
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
Gulag? Forced psychiatric internment?
Remember the PBS lawyer who said Republican voters should have their children put in re-education camps? https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-entertainment-corona...
Re: Howling in Unison: The Soviet Writers' Union
#37I was born in the USSR, and I have read a great deal about this period (and have read works of all writers mentioned), so i think i have a very clear pictire of how things were at that time... And that's why I'm very opposed to today's 'woke' culture, because it is so much alike the totalitarian USSR society that caused so much harm. Sure, some of the proclaimed values are different, but methods are almost the same.
To me one of the scariest things is Twitter wokeism. It echoes Honeckers DDR. Neighbors and friends denouncing each other for minor transgressions. Some of it due to personal revenge, some of it to provide cover for their own shortcomings, some true believers. Honecker did it for power and oppression. These people gleefully enlist voluntarily, attacking enemy and friends and each other to prove who the better dehuman…
Does this happen often on Twitter?
Literally every example I've ever read about on Twitter is one of the following:
1. some poster completely unknown to the person in question-- either revealing content of old Tweets or aggressively responding to a recent utterance. Then that goes viral.
2. some victim of assault makes an accusation as a last ditch effort to stop a monster from continuing to assault victims.
I know plenty of examples of Facebook's instigation algo ripping at the seams of otherwise close-knit communities. But those are cases of a nasty divorce spilling out into public posts, or a political disagreement suddenly turning into, "Someone should burn so-and-so's house down!" Weird shit.
I've never witnessed any people who are friends or neighbors with each other attempt police each other's minor transgressions on Twitter.
Re: Howling in Unison: The Soviet Writers' Union
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you think it makes a difference, though, if in one case the system was installed and enforced by a minority in a top-down fashion without general population having a say in it, whereas in the other it appears to be organically arising in society?
Is it organic if there now appears to be a growing push back?
Re: Howling in Unison: The Soviet Writers' Union
#39I was born in the USSR, and I have read a great deal about this period (and have read works of all writers mentioned), so i think i have a very clear pictire of how things were at that time... And that's why I'm very opposed to today's 'woke' culture, because it is so much alike the totalitarian USSR society that caused so much harm. Sure, some of the proclaimed values are different, but methods are almost the same.
Re: Howling in Unison: The Soviet Writers' Union
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you think it makes a difference, though, if in one case the system was installed and enforced by a minority in a top-down fashion without general population having a say in it, whereas in the other it appears to be organically arising in society?
It may appear to you to be organically arising in society, but to many people, it seems to be actively encouraged by propaganda efforts — "anti-extremism training", "diversity training", and the like — and the embrace of those in power, whether governmental or private, even extending to asymmetrical enforcement of laws based on the wokeness of the violators.