Howling in Unison: The Soviet Writers' Union • Hacker News Board

Re: Howling in Unison: The Soviet Writers' Union

#21

Post by itsyaboi » Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 1:12 PM UTC

Werewolf255 wrote: post #5

I enjoyed the article until the inevitable comparison to current trends. It's like reading a retro article. "Holding people in power to account is EXACTLY WHAT THE COMMUNISTS WOULD Do. DON'T ASK HOW. Smoke Lucky Strike Brand cigarettes for that healthy asbestos glow. Vote Mondale. "

I think that "holding people in power to account is bad because cOMmUnISM" is a disingenuous interpretation. From the article:

"Since the party line often shifted, one could find oneself accused of errors that, at the time they were made, were not errors at all. The party constantly invented new mistakes, whether in ideas, practices, or phrases, so that one could never free oneself from the risk of humiliation. One sign of this sort of shame culture is the constant creation of new offenses, usually applied retroactively. No matter how many times the cadre manages to overcome his, he must always overcome them yet again."

Re: Howling in Unison: The Soviet Writers' Union

#22

Post by mc32 » Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 1:13 PM UTC

>”Artistry was, at best, secondary to ideological correctness. Cultivating individual talent earned one reproof for “Mozartism” (ever more pejorative “-isms” were always being discovered). Literary critics, who wrote scathing attacks on works that deviated ever so slightly, lorded it over creative talents.”

Don’t deviate from the narrative. I hope we catch ourselves before it’s too late.

Re: Howling in Unison: The Soviet Writers' Union

#23

Post by ralusek » Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 1:14 PM UTC

Werewolf255 wrote: post #5

I enjoyed the article until the inevitable comparison to current trends. It's like reading a retro article. "Holding people in power to account is EXACTLY WHAT THE COMMUNISTS WOULD Do. DON'T ASK HOW. Smoke Lucky Strike Brand cigarettes for that healthy asbestos glow. Vote Mondale. "

I don't think a single person who objects to the current parallels to communism would take issue with "holding people in power to account," they just wouldn't characterize the current problem as such. The objection seems to be more along the lines of:

- we disagree with characterizing people as being "in power" in accordance with extremely imprecise identity groups

- we disagree with restructuring liberal society to be instead be focused on reparative justice in accordance with who has most competently argued on behalf of their identity group's victimization within society

- we disagree with constituting consensual economic relationships as abuse of power

- we disagree with the mechanisms by which and degree to which people should be "held to account"

Re: Howling in Unison: The Soviet Writers' Union

#24

Post by brokenkebab » Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

varjag wrote: post #4

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #2

I was born in the USSR, and I have read a great deal about this period (and have read works of all writers mentioned), so i think i have a very clear pictire of how things were at that time... And that's why I'm very opposed to today's 'woke' culture, because it is so much alike the totalitarian USSR society that caused so much harm. Sure, some of the proclaimed values are different, but methods are almost the same.

I was also born in USSR and old enough for Komsomol when it disintegrated. Nope, it wasn't much similar to woke culture, mainly because it was rather rigid top-down command hierarchy of values. The current brands of values and socialist morals were rationalized in the Central Committee, then propagated through Republics committees, then oblasts and regions down to town administrations into individual organizations, f…

Wokeness is built on networked flexible leadership (which was not possible before the internet) therefore certainly is not as rigid, centralized, or bureaucratic as CSPU. But OP obviously didn't mean structural similarity. It still values ideological higher truth of social justice over empirical truth, and strives to silence those who don't howl in unison.

Re: Howling in Unison: The Soviet Writers' Union

#25

Post by brokenkebab » Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 1:33 PM UTC

varjag wrote: post #10

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't talking about how did these two systems come up with their values, but about how similar they are in enforcing them.

Any grassroots attempt to challenge the system values (what you would call "woke") was met with the full repressive force of the system. It only softened in the last 3-4 years of decay but even then was still sporadically enforced.

Wokeness is certainly among the strongest movements in developed Anglophone countries, having a huge discoursive power, and embedded in structures of authority for quite a long time. Last 7-8 yrs it became more visible simply because its demands are growing more radical, and it started to fight a wider circles of opponents.

Re: Howling in Unison: The Soviet Writers' Union

#26

Post by TulliusCicero » Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #6

varjag wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was also born in USSR and old enough for Komsomol when it disintegrated. Nope, it wasn't much similar to woke culture, mainly because it was rather rigid top-down command hierarchy of values. The current brands of values and socialist morals were rationalized in the Central Committee, then propagated through Republics committees, then oblasts and regions down to town administrations into individual organizations, f…

I wasn't talking about how did these two systems come up with their values, but about how similar they are in enforcing them.

Yes, I too remember the many people executed by overeager woke committees on Twitter.

Like, seriously? People being shamed into getting fired or quitting is the same thing as death to you?

Re: Howling in Unison: The Soviet Writers' Union

#27

Post by TeMPOraL » Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

strogonoff wrote: post #16

TeMPOraL wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Advancing in society by demonstrating your commitment to the proclaimed values, through ratting out your less committed neighbors, or even falsely accusing them of being less committed.

Do you think it makes a difference, though, if in one case the system was installed and enforced by a minority in a top-down fashion without general population having a say in it, whereas in the other it appears to be organically arising in society?

What I recall from my history lessons is that the top-down system you refer to was the end stage of a revolution that arose organically across the population just a few decades earlier.

Well, "organically". As all such things go, there were real problems affecting a lot of people, but once the movement to fix those problems gained steam, it got quickly leveraged and taken over by various political and economic groups around the world. In the turmoil that followed, one of the groups that co-opted the banner of the initial movement managed to take over Russia, and give birth to USSR.

The point being, USSR did not come out of the blue. What you want to compare the current social trends to is what Russia looked like in the decade prior to the October Revolution.

Re: Howling in Unison: The Soviet Writers' Union

#28

Post by strogonoff » Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 1:52 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #27

strogonoff wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think it makes a difference, though, if in one case the system was installed and enforced by a minority in a top-down fashion without general population having a say in it, whereas in the other it appears to be organically arising in society?

What I recall from my history lessons is that the top-down system you refer to was the end stage of a revolution that arose organically across the population just a few decades earlier. Well, "organically". As all such things go, there were real problems affecting a lot of people, but once the movement to fix those problems gained steam, it got quickly leveraged and taken over by various political and economic groups…

I believe, while the general population’s suffering has clearly contributed to the original cause of the revolution, it did not in case of the subsequent forced top-down censorship system, which was established purely by and for the new elites to maintain power. I like to think that distinguishes it from the current “woke” culture, but maybe I’m mistaken and not able to notice a coordinated manipulation of public opinion by some hidden force. It smells of a conspiracy theory, though.

Re: Howling in Unison: The Soviet Writers' Union

#29

Post by FooBarBizBazz » Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 2:02 PM UTC

Werewolf255 wrote: post #5

I enjoyed the article until the inevitable comparison to current trends. It's like reading a retro article. "Holding people in power to account is EXACTLY WHAT THE COMMUNISTS WOULD Do. DON'T ASK HOW. Smoke Lucky Strike Brand cigarettes for that healthy asbestos glow. Vote Mondale. "

You know Mondale was a pro-labor Democrat [1] who, according to Wikipedia "supported consumer protection, fair housing, tax reform, and the desegregation of schools" [2]. Not sure why you want to set up negative associations around him. Probably the ignorant belief that everything in the past was evil and far-right. I can't blame you; our collective memory is getting fucked with.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/1984/01/22/magazine/labor-s-gamble-o...

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Mondale

Re: Howling in Unison: The Soviet Writers' Union

#30

Post by PicassoCTs » Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 2:33 PM UTC

varjag wrote: post #4

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #2

I was born in the USSR, and I have read a great deal about this period (and have read works of all writers mentioned), so i think i have a very clear pictire of how things were at that time... And that's why I'm very opposed to today's 'woke' culture, because it is so much alike the totalitarian USSR society that caused so much harm. Sure, some of the proclaimed values are different, but methods are almost the same.

I was also born in USSR and old enough for Komsomol when it disintegrated. Nope, it wasn't much similar to woke culture, mainly because it was rather rigid top-down command hierarchy of values. The current brands of values and socialist morals were rationalized in the Central Committee, then propagated through Republics committees, then oblasts and regions down to town administrations into individual organizations, f…

Yeah, its more the chinese red-guard sort of mob-rule, directed barely by the system-provider.