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A new moralism is gripping the literary world

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Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#191

Post by whydoibother »

DC1350 wrote: post #187
whydoibother wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said it. European culture. PoC have lived in Europe for ages. So, no, you can't say 'European/white', as that erases huge groups of people and is factually wrong.

This is like saying it’s factually wrong to call Indian people POC because it erases the existence of White British people in India.

No, it isn't. British in India were colonizers who sought to divide and subjugate the Indian population. The PoC who live in Europe aren't there to colonize it. They are part of the population and therefore the culture.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#193

Post by acdha »

cameldrv wrote: post #149
heterodoxxed wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

| if one of them does happen to be available, the prices are astronomical Yes, they're out of print and the only people who want them are collectors, so the prices for collectibles are high. That's not unusual. What are you proposing be done? Force the Seuss Foundation to publish books it doesn't want to publish?

The Seuss foundation is free to stop publishing the books. I don’t see how that creates an obligation for Amazon or eBay to prohibit sale, nor for any library that was happily lending these last week to pull them from circulation entirely. After all of this, it is considerably easier to procure the writings of Adolf Hitler than of Dr. Seuss. That is very strange and wrong.

Did anyone say it creates an obligation for Amazon or eBay to ban them? Those companies chose to do so voluntarily under their existing policies, which used to be a thing conservatives supported.

The Mein Kampf comparisons also tend to leave out two key factors: most of Dr. Seuss’ books are intended for children and they’re presented without critical analysis. I don’t think you’d find much objection to the same kind of scholarly work discussing Seuss’ works in the historical context – Dr. Seuss Goes to War being a good example of what that might look like.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#194

Post by shockeychap »

happytoexplain wrote: post #170
tharne wrote: post #15

I've noticed this too. The recommendations I'm now getting from my audible account are full of newly-published titles promoting wokism and other morally and intellectually bankrupt junk rather than the classic titles I typically go for.

Why is anything classifiable as "wokism" automatically morally and intellectually bankrupt junk? That sounds an awful lot like simply dismissing a broad category of opinions that may contain a reasonably moral/intellectual subset, much like the thing that wokism is being accused of right now.

Fair observation. But consider that proponents of "wokism" have busily engaged in censorship of thought and speech - showing no interest in a fair and open debate - while simultaneously demanding unquestioning fealty to its principles. For me, that speaks to an intrinsic and inherent moral and intellectual bankruptcy.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#195

Post by MikeUt »

krapp wrote: post #139
radiator wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why is it considered anti-trans speech, when a villain is "a male serial killer known to have worn a dress"? Surely, in many other books the serial killer is a straight male. Why are their authors not accused of anti-heterosexual speech? Are we promoting some sort of discrimination against straight males? Are they the only ones allowed to be evil?

> But why is it considered anti-trans speech, when a villain is "a male serial killer known to have worn a dress"? Mostly the cultural effects of the Hays code and decades of queer-coding villains as evil or sexually depraved in fiction and popular culture. A fictional male serial killer tends not to simply "have worn a dress," that specific detail, like all details in fiction, is intended to communicate something to…

> that specific detail, like all details in fiction, is intended to communicate something to the reader/viewer

Except the details of being white or male - those are not intended to communicate anything?

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#196

Post by at_a_remove »

DC1350 wrote: post #156
ramraj07 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as you are able to do that, is it truly censoring? No ones burning books here. To say the publishing industry is especially censoring today than before is outrageous. The point is that it self censored in the ethnicity and gender of its authors instead of the material. There’s only one nytimes best seller that can exist about a Mexican immigrant, now do you want that to be written by a white author or a Mexic…

You’re just asking white people to quit writing since a book with 0 minority characters is also going to be criticized.

That's the point, as far as I can tell. An elaborate flowchart is constructed and all paths lead to DON'T, but stated in different ways, so that you cannot see the trap.

Write characters that are not exactly like you: you cannot possibly do this right and have no business attempting it. Write characters that are just like you: where's my representation?

It just needs a speech synthesizer uttering the words "The only winning move is not to play" at the end. Thus, effectively silenced by your own conclusion, other people can take your place. If you point this out, well, hasn't your kind said enough already?

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#197

Post by Pxtl »

zepto wrote: post #172
FrancizHam wrote: post #168

I always notice that when someone is upset about 'moralism' and 'cancel culture' against a text, they rarely engage with the actual criticism against said text. Has anyone actually looked at the drawings in Dr. Seuss' books? His political cartoons? Has anyone actually read American Dirt? I agree that we shouldn't be outright censoring books, but that hasn't happened yet. You can still read JK Rowling, you can still f…

> you can still find the six discontinued Dr. Seuss books quite easily Can you? Even used copies are now banned even on eBay. Where do you ‘easily’ find them?

They're still available on eBay in the larger anthologies like Six By Seuss. It's only the standalone that were removed and as I understand it that was because of the crazy bids they were getting.

I assume they wouldn't have bothered if the reaction hadn't been so extreme.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#198

Post by andrewzah »

whatshisface wrote: post #151
space_fountain wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of other peoples voices go into writing a book. You are in essence saying that they should all be forced to lend their voices and help someone they feel has merely dogged responsibility. Laws are not the same as justice and never will be

> Laws are not the same as justice and never will be If the laws in a democratic country aren't on the side of justice, then neither are the people, and if the people aren't on the side of justice, an auxiliary prosecution system formed of the people won't be either.

This is incredibly reductionist. The US alone has about 330 million people. There are many poorly worded or enforced laws, and not every single person is in a unified agreement about them. And the legal/justice system itself isn't perfect.

There are the legal courts, and then there are is the court of public opinion. Is it always -fair-? No. But you can't force a private publisher to publish someone's material either.

We have a strong solution available to each of us: a wallet. Don't support publishers that cave to the court of public opinion.. or do! I'm not your parent.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#199

Post by acdha »

christkv wrote: post #84
heterodoxxed wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

| if one of them does happen to be available, the prices are astronomical Yes, they're out of print and the only people who want them are collectors, so the prices for collectibles are high. That's not unusual. What are you proposing be done? Force the Seuss Foundation to publish books it doesn't want to publish?

I would prefer that any book that has not been in print for 10 years automatically fall into public domain as abandoned.

You’d need some rule voiding publication contracts and reverting rights to the author - otherwise unethical publishers might try to game the system to get works into the public domain to avoid royalties if something seems likely to be rediscovered due to a tie-in or another work by that author becoming popular.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#200

Post by moron4hire »

jfengel wrote: post #115
moron4hire wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, it's not like "NYTimes Best Seller" is the gigantic accolade people make it out to be. https://scribemedia.com/get-best-seller-list/

It's free marketing -- or at least, a marketing amplifier. Sell enough books and you can get your name in front of a bunch more people. Those people at least know that other people are buying your book. That said, your link's observation that it's a curated list actually means that it is more of an accolade than merely sales. It means that somebody at the Times wanted the book on the list, which says more to its read…

On the other hand, if you can sell the "5,000 to 10,000 copies in a week" that is the supposed threshold for getting notice from the NY Times, do you really need help selling your book? Selling books gets you on the list, getting on the list sells books. Which is the bigger effect?

Given the NY Times growing irrelivance in the market, the high-profile cases of having their list gamed more than once, their ongoing war against their own users with the 3rd party tracking and bullshit they pull over cancellations, I somehow doubt their list is having much of an impact on anyone.

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